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TOPIC: Wiarton MF question

Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11468

  • John S
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Well I'm going to Wiarton and I see that its a MF tfc 122.2, my question is who do I talk to to get an airport advisory? I've only been on 1 other cross country and that was to Muskoka and I know its Timmins radio that you call up, but what is Wiarton? Wiarton unicom? Wiarton traffic? London radio? Thanks :)
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11469

  • Ron
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A few years back on my first trip into Wiarton I had the same problem , I called Wiarton radio & got a response back right away - it was the airport manager & he gave me all the information I needed. He also told me to make my calls to the traffic - which seemed odd to me as it's an MF. I've been back 3 times & it's always been Wiarton traffic. If your looking for the latest weather you can call London radio on 126.7
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11470

  • Illo A Neri
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If I recall my MF procedures, all calls are made to traffic....

Yarmouth and Fredericton used to get on my nerves, as I would make the call to traffic, and radio would answer. Had to go down for a friendly chat with the individuals to let them know when I wanted to know info from them (winds, altimeter) I will call them radio. When I want to find out who is in the pattern, I will call traffic and speak to pilots.

There was a trend when the radio operators were giving out active runways, and clearances to land...so wrong it ain't even funny!

But I would make my initial call to Wiartion radio, ask for winds, altimeter (or latest weather) then make a broadcast call to traffic and find out who is flying around....plan my approach(es) and keep my head on swivel...

Illo
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11472

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Easy way to remember MF versus ATF procedures for uncontrolled airports is to treat a manned MF as a quasi-tower. Only after you have determined that the MF is not manned should you start making traffic broadcasts. An ATF is an uncontrolled aerodrome that does not meet MF standards and any advisory is simply that - an advisory.

A quick perusal through the CARS or GPH 204 (p.141 for Igloo) confirms these details and clears up the muddy waters.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11473

  • Michael Oxner
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The previous post is not far off. There are few differences when it comes to procedures for MF and ATF. Looking at the AIM, for example, you'll find that at an MF it's acceptable to join straight-in on final or on base, but not at an ATF. A review of the AIM RAC 4.5.2 will help clear some of this up. Otherwise, the differences between them are minimal for aircraft equipped with radios. You still make the same calls at each with position and the pilots are still on their own to coordinate their movements and work out between them where they are and what they intend to do. There is no quasi-control tower there in either case, regardless of what is being said by whoever is on the ground.

The CFS entry for the airport tells you who you should direct your calls to. In an outdated pub I have, Wiarton is listed in the COMM section as \"MF tfc 122.2\". This means that when you call in, you're to direct your calls to \"Wiarton Traffic\". There may be a ground station there to provide you with winds and altimeter, but there may not. Even if there usually is one there, they may not be manning the position at the time. Other entries you may see include \"Airport Radio\" (which is not to be confused with an FSS providing AAS or RAAS). Similarly, they have no authority over your flight in terms of control or direction.

Airports with FSS providing Airport Advisory Service (AAS - FSS on the airport) or Remote Airport Advisory Service (FSS from another location providing the same service) are a little different. The station is supposed to be manned by ATS personnel -- note I said ATS not ATC (Air Traffic Services). These people are trained as FSS, meaning they can provide information including official weather observations (and updates to them), as well as relay of flight information which can include traffic operating at or near the airport. Once again, you're talking with someone who has no authority over your flight, and you, the pilot, are on your own to determine just what you're going to do with respect to other traffic. They may make suggestions, but pilots are still on their own. They will normally announce a \"preferred runway\", which is essentially an active runway as a control tower would see it, but it isn't being assigned. Pilots must still conform with the circuit pattern established just as they would any other uncontrolled aerodrome.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11480

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Michael - I have found that MF RADIO aerodromes tend to frown upon any \"inter-plane\" calls and wish all traffic calls to be made to them - the rules seem to back this practice up.

It should be made clear, that the only time you can join straight-in on final, base or downwind is when the aerodrome has a manned MF - an ATF or unmanned MF requires that you join mid-downwind in order to determine the landing runway and confirm the airfield is clear.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11504

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port.rm wrote:
It should be made clear, that the only time you can join straight-in on final, base or downwind is when the aerodrome has a manned MF - an ATF or unmanned MF requires that you join mid-downwind in order to determine the landing runway and confirm the airfield is clear.

I didn't read far enough in the same paragraph I was looking at, and it does state, as you say, \"Aerodromes within an MF area when airport
advisory information is available\" for joining straight-in or on base legs. The next section (Part vii) states that for aerodromes where airport advisory is not available, \"once the pilot has ascertained without any doubt that there will be no conflict with other traffic entering the circuit or traffic established within the circuit, the pilot may join the circuit on the downwind leg\". It doesn't state that pilots may join straight-in on final or base in this case as I said earlier. My apologies to anyone led astray by my remarks in my previous post.

As for the appropriate person to call, I stick to my guns. If the entry for Wiarton in the CFS states \"MF tfc 122.2\", then calls on the frequency should be made to \"Wiarton Traffic\". If it says, \"MF rdo 122.2\", the calls should be made to \"Wiarton Radio\". If the airport is provided with RAAS, then it will actually state the unit location name as well, such as for Sydney, NS, \"MF Charlottetown rdo 122.0\", and then calls should be made to \"Charlottetown Radio\". Stephenville, NL, brings the \"MF aprt rdo 122.1\" line into play, in which case, calls should be directed to \"Stephenville Airport Radio\".
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11558

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port.rm wrote:
Michael - I have found that MF RADIO aerodromes tend to frown upon any \"inter-plane\" calls and wish all traffic calls to be made to them - the rules seem to back this practice up.

Well, my point of view is that the FSS is there to provide the pilot with traffic information among other things. They usually describe what the pilots intentions are in their MF zone and a good FSS would give only the pertinent traffic to you. Pilot talking to each other in the zone can be a bit frustrating for us I agree. Partly because that's our job to describe traffic to you. Now, if pilots start chatting with each others, in could mean that the FSS didn't do a good job as describing traffic (bad days can happen you know...) and the pilots feel the need of clarifying the situation for their own safety (which is perfectly ok). Another thing is that we may have to relay messages (like ATC clearances, WX info, SVFR Authorizations etc...) to other aircrafts in our MF making it difficult if pilots congest the only frequency we have. So, inter-plane communications can lead to confusion and all communications should to be directed to the FSS to keep him \"in the loop\", if practicable.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11584

  • Illo A Neri
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Take a look at North Bay folks, in the CFS, and tie it with the Com section of the AIM. As Mike alluded to, very simple...

It will state what call sign to use with the airport ground station. So, in North Bay, it sez:

MF rdo 118.3 1130-0330z O/T tfc 7NM 5000 ASL (CAR 602.98).

Wiarton states:

MF tfc 122.2 5NM 3700 ASL yada yada.

So to answer the oroginal question, the legally correct way to call up Wiarton is Wiarton Traffic. Period Full Stop. No call to radio.

If you were going to CYYB, the proper call is North Bay Radio, and if outside the manning hours, then North Bay Traffic.

Insofar as FSS precluding inter-plane discussions - hope this doesn't happen...in the end it will be up to the pilots to organize themselves, and FSS cannot sequence area traffic. There will have to be inter-plane coordination. FSS supplements and assists by providing info not known to the area traffic (ie IFR inbounds/outbounds, and times) however you still need to talk between the airplanes....

my 2 cents.

illo
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11595

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Igloo wrote:

MF rdo 118.3 1130-0330z O/T tfc 7NM 5000 ASL (CAR 602.98).

And there's the important instructional citation: CAR 602.98

General MF Reporting Requirements

602.98 (1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.

(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be

(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation; or

(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11605

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...and based on Wiarton´s CFS listing, I´d say it is safe to presume there is no ground station there operating, hence the tfc annotation.

Good discussions, as always!!

Illo
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11615

Hello all...

A student of mine referred me to this site and this particular question about Wiarton. I'm a flight instructor in Owen Sound (about 15nm south of wiarton) and i've been flying up here for the last 11 years or so...so i think i may have some insight into the Wiarton MF.

Wiarton is really a special case. Normally you would make calls in an MF to Wiarton Radio, or Fredericton Radio, or North Bay Radio, and transmit your intentions, where you would recieve a reply acknowledging your intentions.

In Wiarton there is often no one there to answer your call. Try to get the surface winds in Wiarton from 122.20 and you may be successful 1 out of 8 times. You're better off going through 126.7 and getting London FSS to rhyme off the latest Metar.

Years ago, Wiarton was built to be the alternate for airplanes going into Pearson, granted it's only a 5000' rwy, it would still facilitate a large variety of commercial jets. This explains the MF aspect.

As of late, Wiarton is more of a dinosour...with no real funding from the government or the province to keep it up to shape. The entire airport is run by volunteers...those of which are sometimes there on the ground to give you information, but sometimes not available.

When it comes to radio calls for Wiarton, you should be broadcasting to Wiarton Traffic, and having two way communication between you and other aircraft. If you want to try and get a hold of weather information, you can try and call Wiarton Radio on 122.20 for some information, but it's probable that you won't get a reply.

Now if you were to fly say, to North Bay, another MF and make a call to North Bay Traffic, you'd be likely to have a strip torn off you by the guy manning the North Bay Radio, because they tend to be quite busy there and require a Radio guy on the ground monitoring movements...whereas that was the intention for Wiarton years ago, but such is not the reality of the situation today.

But if anyone is ever passing through Owen Sound on the way up, feel free to stop in for a coffee, we've always got a fresh pot on, and we often have the cheapest gas in town. Fill up at the pumps and we'll give you free tie down accomodations...stay the night and catch an Owen Sound Attack game this winter!

Happy flying!

Daviator
CA751859<br /><br />Post edited by: Daviator, at: 2007/08/06 20:20
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11618

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Well, that confirms it then.

Daviator, I'm thinking about making the run up from Brampton to Wiarton and Tobermory and return this fall and may now just have to make a pit stop in Owen Sound. One thing about Wiarton on its website, though, that made it look worth a stop was that its restaurant sounded interesting.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11620

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The post above about Wiarton Radio still doesn't actually confirm it. The CFS tells you in the airport's entry who to call. \"Radio\" is the callsign used when talking to a Flight Service Station, just like \"Tower\" is used to call the control tower at a controlled airport, or \"Centre\" is used when talking to an ACC. The \"COMM\" section in the airport's CFS entry has a number of possibilities, and that's where you determine who to call. The reference for this is in the section of the CFS (GPH205) before the airport entries. The outdated copy I have (which I don't use for reference for real world flight, I just hang on to stuff like this), has this list of callsigns on page A74. In current versions, it may be on a different page number but the section is still the same. The section describes the services available and how to interpret what's written for each airport in each section not just for the COMM section, but for each section. It is worth reviewing sometime.

You'll note the possibilities there such as \"ARPT RDO\" for Airport Radio, UNICOM, etc. When it says, \"TFC\", it means make your calls to \"[Airport Name] traffic\". If the station were manned regularly, it would list the hours when it was manned (24hours/day if not noted otherwise) and the callsign would reflect that depending on what kind of ground station were in place. If it was a flight service station, it would be staffed by FSS from NavCanada which provide weather and airport advisory services, it would say, \"RDO\" if AAS or RAAS is being provided by that ATS unit. If it is a Community Aerodrome Radio Service (CARS), it would show \"ARPT RDO\" in the left column and the frequency and times the service is available on the right. The absence of this demonstrates to the pilot that there is not necessarily anyone there to get that information from. Debert, NS, was similar in that the main building had a transmitter with wind and altimeter instrumentation, but there wasn't necessarily anyone there at the radio to talk to when you fly in.

Further reference to this can be found in the AIM, RAC 5.8.2. Further information on the types of ground stations (and this should be reviewed, too, since there is important information in there as to the level of service each station is authorized to provide) can be found in the AIM in RAC 1.1 and 1.2.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11622

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I flew into wiarton on friday morning, and when about 15 miles out i called 'wiarton traffic, this is xxxx cessna 172'.... a few moments later, i got, 'this is wiarton, go ahead cessna xxxx'. At which point, i got the weather/advisory.

Went up to the rooftop cafe and had a coffee when i got down, and read a magazine for a while, then back into the air. Friendly bunch of folks there.

Small note, the cafe is self serve at all times other than 10-6 on saturday/sunday. Very nice stop, and very friendly folks. My impression is that the airport manager will return your call when he is able to, during the short time i was there, a US reg'd cherokee, and a PC12 stopped in, and they all got advisories from the manager.
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11623

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michael_oxner wrote:
The post above about Wiarton Radio still doesn't actually confirm it. The CFS tells you in the airport's entry who to call.

Michael, Daviator's post, in saying you should address calls to traffic at Wiarton confirms what the CFS says for Wiarton MF: tfc 122.2 (which was what was reported in the original post on this thread), and so also confirms what you've been saying in general about what to do when it a CFS entry says tfc vs rdo.

As for the original question, \"who do I talk to for an airport advisory\", that seems to have been answered, too: call London FSS if you certainly want a reply, or ask in a \"Wiarton traffic\" call, in which case you may get no reply, or another friendly pilot on site replying, or maybe, just maybe, the airport manager if he was listening in.

Post edited by: Sydney, at: 2007/08/07 15:00<br /><br />Post edited by: Sydney, at: 2007/08/07 15:03
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11626

The folks that do work at the Wiarton Airport are a really friendly bunch, no question about it. We had a coupple students divert there after returning from a cross country to find an airplane disabled near the threshold of 18 in Owen Sound. The airport was closed for about 6 hours while we cleaned up, no one was hurt.

In the mean time, the students landed in Wiarton, pretty hungry and the restaurant at that time wasn't open...but...the staff at work, went out of thier way and drove the boys into Wiarton and had lunch with them! Absolutely fabulous staff.

Sydney, a side note on your way to Tobermory...the Unicom guy there is a little odd...but very friendly. Have a great flight!
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Re:Wiarton MF question 10 years 9 months ago #11662

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It appears that I misread Daviator's post. I believed he was confirming that the calls normally went to \"Wiarton Radio\" in that case. When I look back, I see it does say something different. Wiarton's case is not very special, actually. There are a number of airports across the country in a very similar position when it comes to ground stations.

Just the same, I feel that Sydney's post above should be clarified a little. While inbound, you can get your weather info from London FSS, but inside the MF area, calls go to Wiarton Traffic. London won't be monitoring their MF.
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Need suggestions for Good Flight School Around GTA 7 months 3 weeks ago #21057

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