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TOPIC: Logging PIC time when dual

Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15656

  • Dimitre
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Hi, I'm sure this has been asked here but couldn't find it.

When having a PPL and working for your Instrument or Commercial with an instructor, so it's dual.... can you log PIC time as well?

I think that the instructor can only log PIC when I am with a view limiting device, and that I can log all the time as both PIC and dual (provided I have the PPL). But I got someone telling me something else and I want to make sure I have it right.

Thanks.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15657

  • Joes
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You can't log something as pic and dual. One or the other. With an instructor, it's dual. When you're the sole flight crew member, it's pic. Also, the only time you can be under the hood is with an instructor, therefore your time is dual.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15658

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As CJOE said you can't log both one or the other. You are either PIC or not. If you are dual your instructor is PIC. It doesn't matter what ratings or licence you hold, dual is dual.

Another way to look at it - if you logged a 1 hour flight as both PIC and dual in your log book, you would be counting 2 hours towards your total time (when adding columns 1 through 10) for a 1 hour flight...obviously you can't do that.

PD
\"Success four flights thursday morning...inform press home christmas\" Orville Wright Dec17,1903
Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by PrairieDog.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15659

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Can you let me know which text in the regulations is saying this?

I got all my training in US and the FARs (which I find much easier to read than the CARs) say this:
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

....

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

....

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

.....

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

So based on the things in red I can log my time as PIC (as when I'm training for instrument for example I am the sole manipulator of the controls and the instructor is at most telling me what to do here and there or helping with the communications.... but not that much working with the controls) .... and also I can log it as training as no where does it say that I can only pick one or the other.

In the same time based on the thing in blue the instructor can also log this time as PIC as she is acting as an authorized instructor for the flight.

I couldn't find the text in CARs that describes this in detail. However someone told me this is the ICAO way and it should be like this in Canada too. But I am still to find something either in CARs or some ICAO documents talking about this.

PrairieDog wrote:
(when adding columns 1 through 10)

what are these columns?
Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Dimitre.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15660

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Sorry but no. You are not the sole manipulator of the aircraft. If the instructor is there, you are logging dual. No if ands or buts about it, stop trying to beat around the bush. You also can't have 2 PICs.
(d) Only the pilot designated as pilot-in-command may be credited with pilot-in-command (solo) flight time.
In-flight Instruction (Dual): Non-Licensed Pilots

(a) Holders of pilot licences may give initial (ab initio) flight instruction, provided they are in possession of a valid instructor rating.

(b) When receiving in-flight instruction from an authorized flying instructor, a student pilot may be credited with dual flight time only.

(c) An instructor may be credited with pilot-in-command flight time when giving in-flight instruction to a student pilot.
Instrument Flying Practice

(a) When licensed pilots are engaged in instrument flying practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, only the designated pilot-in-command may be credited with pilot-in-command flight time.

(b) The pilot undertaking instrument practice with an appropriately qualified pilot, if not the designated pilot-in-command, may be credited with dual flight time.
Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Joes.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15661

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Based on your reasoning, you could go up as a PPL for a 1 hour flight with an instructor and log it as 1.0 PIC and 1.0 Dual for a total of 2.0 hours - does that make sense to you - a 1 hour flight worth 2 in your log book?

The colums 1 through 10 are the first 10 colums in our (Canadian) log books - they are the columns you add up for your total time.

If during that flight your instructor taught you for say .6 hours and you as a ppl taxied took off and landed the plane for instance (0.4) you could log 0.4 PIC and 0.6 dual.
\"Success four flights thursday morning...inform press home christmas\" Orville Wright Dec17,1903
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15662

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ok. Thanks. I'll have to do some recalculation of my time now. Is the AIM regulatory text in Canada? :-)... I'm kidding.
3.7 Crediting of Time

3.7.1 Operation of Dual Control Aircraft

(a) The pilot-in-command of a flight or any portion of a flight in a dual control aircraft shall be designated prior to takeoff.

(b) There shall be a satisfactory method of intercommunication between pilots in all aircraft under dual control.

(c) Flight time for pilots may be credited either as dual, pilot-in-command (solo) or co-pilot.


(d) Only the pilot designated as pilot-in-command may be credited with pilot-in-command (solo) flight time.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15663

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The sole manipulator thing is for when there are multiple pilots in a single crew airplane. Aside from instruction you can't log dual or co-pilot with another pilot in say a 172.

Logging PIC time is when the buck stops with you. Even though I fly in a 2 crew environment when I'm the pilot flying (sole manipulator) I'm still logging co-pilot time. I can't credit my pilot flying legs as PIC time, nor would that be considered sole manipulation, the other pilot is working the radio's and navigating.

While your flying with an instructor the school is expecting him, not you, to bring home their airplane. When you get signed out to go then your under the gun.

The instructors salaries in addition to being payed with dollars are payed in PIC time. I've flown under instruction as the PIC but you won't find that the norm, most instructors need the time to further their career, the same way that your looking to log more time.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15664

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PrairieDog wrote:
Based on your reasoning, you could go up as a PPL for a 1 hour flight with an instructor and log it as 1.0 PIC and 1.0 Dual for a total of 2.0 hours - does that make sense to you - a 1 hour flight worth 2 in your log book?

The colums 1 through 10 are the first 10 colums in our (Canadian) log books - they are the columns you add up for your total time.

If during that flight your instructor taught you for say .6 hours and you as a ppl taxied took off and landed the plane for instance (0.4) you could log 0.4 PIC and 0.6 dual.

No, that doesn't make sense.... Only that I was not sure that this time has to add up to your total.... There is nothing (in US) that stops me from logging the time as both dual and PIC and then logging total of just 1 hour... not two. But that text in the Canadian AIM makes it clear that in Canada it's either or but not both... so it is obvious that here the dual and PIC have to add up to the total. Thanks.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15665

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Graham wrote:
While your flying with an instructor the school is expecting him, not you, to bring home their airplane. When you get signed out to go then your under the gun.

The instructors salaries in addition to being payed with dollars are payed in PIC time. I've flown under instruction as the PIC but you won't find that the norm, most instructors need the time to further their career, the same way that your looking to log more time.

ah.. that's another difference too... I rent the plane so it's me who is responsible for that plane and we go to fly with the instructor (freelance)... so there is no school at all.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15666

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stol701 wrote:
No, that doesn't make sense.... Only that I was not sure that this time has to add up to your total.... There is nothing (in US) that stops me from logging the time as both dual and PIC and then logging total of just 1 hour... not two.

I didn't realize that was the case in the US. What would be the advantage of logging both hours (but only counting one)?

There is nothing stopping you from agreeing ahead of time that you are PIC and your friend who happens to be a flight instructor is along for the ride. If he happens to toss a bit of teaching your way in the air good for you (but with you as PIC your friend can't log any time of course, in a plane that doesn't need 2 crew obviously). However you would still (only) log that as PIC and I don't think transport would consider that \"training\" in terms of credit towards another rating or what have you. If they review your log book they would be looking for dual training time. Somebody smarter than me please correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't have a chance yet to dig through the regs / aim but it looks like the relevant sections have been found.
\"Success four flights thursday morning...inform press home christmas\" Orville Wright Dec17,1903
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15667

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Yes, it looks like it's a different way time is logged. I'll have to go back now and see how much of my flight was both dual and pic.... when I add them up it comes up about 70-80 hours more than my total... and according to what was said here I'll have to count the \"extra\" time as dual only. I'm sure I still have all the time that I need as my logbook was actually reviewed from FAA some time ago and the requirements are not that different...only I guess when they look for what is PIC here they actually look for solo... and here in Canada it seems PIC and solo are kind of interchangeable. But it's just strange how something like that can be different.
Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Dimitre.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15668

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stol701 wrote:
Yes, it looks like it's a different way time is logged. I'll have to go back now and see how much of my flight was both dual and pic.... when I add them up it comes up about 70-80 hours more than my total... and according to what was said here I'll have to count the \"extra\" time as dual only. I'm sure I still have all the time that I need as my logbook was actually reviewed from FAA some time ago and the requirements are not that different...only I guess when they look for what is PIC here they actually look for solo... and here in Canada it seems PIC and solo are kind of interchangeable. But it's just strange how something like that can be different.

Solo and PIC are interchangeable in a sense. I think solo is used more in the training context to distinguish from when an instructor is on board (e.g. student doing solo circuits)
\"Success four flights thursday morning...inform press home christmas\" Orville Wright Dec17,1903
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15669

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PrairieDog wrote:
Solo and PIC are interchangeable in a sense. I think solo is used more in the training context to distinguish from when an instructor is on board (e.g. student doing solo circuits)

Yes.... in the context of applying for license they are kind of the same. It's even more. The solo time requirement is meant to be really solo.... the sole occupant of the aircraft... so that you actually performed single pilot flying. Otherwise even an unrated friend can help with navigation, lookout, etc... and that seems to be defying the purpose of the solo requirement. I actually had to redo my long cross-country because of this :-)
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something else that's different.... 8 years 8 months ago #15670

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I just remembered something else. When I came from US I went to Toronto Airways and started talking with the guy doing dispatch. So he asked me of my qualifications and I said I am a CFI... He kind of looked at me a little suspiciously... Later I found out that CFI in Canada means Chief Flight Instructor (for which you need some substantial experience)... while in US it means Certified Flight Instructor :-)
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Re:something else that's different.... 8 years 8 months ago #15671

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stol701 wrote:
I just remembered something else. When I came from US I went to Toronto Airways and started talking with the guy doing dispatch. So he asked me of my qualifications and I said I am a CFI... He kind of looked at me a little suspiciously... Later I found out that CFI in Canada means Chief Flight Instructor (for which you need some substantial experience)... while in US it means Certified Flight Instructor :-)

And while we're on the topic of stuff that's different, I rented out of a flight school in Colorado, and of course needed a check out first. I walked in and asked a few questions then said I guess I need a check out, which they understood to mean a flight test :D
\"Success four flights thursday morning...inform press home christmas\" Orville Wright Dec17,1903
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15672

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stol701 wrote:
PrairieDog wrote:
Based on your reasoning, you could go up as a PPL for a 1 hour flight with an instructor and log it as 1.0 PIC and 1.0 Dual for a total of 2.0 hours - does that make sense to you - a 1 hour flight worth 2 in your log book?

The colums 1 through 10 are the first 10 colums in our (Canadian) log books - they are the columns you add up for your total time.

If during that flight your instructor taught you for say .6 hours and you as a ppl taxied took off and landed the plane for instance (0.4) you could log 0.4 PIC and 0.6 dual.

No, that doesn't make sense.... Only that I was not sure that this time has to add up to your total.... There is nothing (in US) that stops me from logging the time as both dual and PIC and then logging total of just 1 hour... not two. But that text in the Canadian AIM makes it clear that in Canada it's either or but not both... so it is obvious that here the dual and PIC have to add up to the total. Thanks.

Even if there is a technicality that allows you to log both dual and PIC, how exactly do you plan on adding up your TT? Unless your log book is drastically different than a Canadian one, that would be very confusing to do. On each page my log adds the Dual column and the PIC column, then you add the two together to get your TT so 1 hour logged as both would be included in your TT as 2 hours.

As someone else said, what is the benefit of logging both if you can only count one of them as TT? I think the regs you are referring to might only apply to cases where the flight is split, so maybe half of the flight is PIC by you, and Dual by the other person, and vice versa. In that case you would log 0.5 PIC and 0.5 Dual (I think it would be better to put it on separate lines in the log). That would make much more sense than trying to log the same hour under both columns. Bottom line, having the same hour in two columns and only including one of them in the TT would make it VERY difficult for your log book to be interpreted, or to certify your times as correct.
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Re:Logging PIC time when dual 8 years 8 months ago #15673

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84c172 wrote:
Even if there is a technicality that allows you to log both dual and PIC, how exactly do you plan on adding up your TT?

There is a column \"Total\" for each flight... so I add those to get the TT at the bottom of the page. It's the Jeppesen book.

Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Dimitre.
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