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TOPIC: Float plane insurance

Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8818

  • Dodge
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hey all,

Im thinking of buying a small float plane for private use...it will take a while to figure out a plan to manage the costs. Now the question for all you aircraft owners (floats) what would I be looking at in insurance per year for a small float plane (172/champ...not new)?

I have 250TT 40 floats CPL. I havent read anything on what insurance would be on the float side of flying...and what is considered high...any info guys/gals (based on experience/knowledge)? Thanks
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8819

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Good question, I'm also curious about the general cost of insurance.

Trying to figure out renting all the time vs. buying my own.
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8820

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does anyone know where in the GTA they hold seminars on owning vs. renting aircrafts? I've been contemplating it myself and was curious about whats involved and what it costs to get started.
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8822

Can't specifically tell you about floatplanes, but based on my research while buying our plane, I can tell you that generally they are more expensive, sometimes much more. On the low end planes, sometimes the floats can be as much as the plane. We pay about $2500/year for our 4 seat 180hp single engine fixed gear fixed prop a/c that cost us $60,000 CAD. I can't see why the insurance costs would be much different. If you have the proper ratings you should be fine. There are only two companies in Canada selling insurance so there won't be much point in shopping around. The costs of maintaining a float plane in fresh water should not be any greater than those for a land plane; maybe less without all the landing gear stuff to look after. Mind you, if you get floats with retractable wheels, that's another story. It would give you the greatest utility from the a/c, but you may find that it prices you out of the market.

If you don't need to get into a plane right away, take your time looking. There are lots of planes on the market, and what looks like a deal today may be an elephant in a month. It is definitely a buyer's market. Keep track of websites that you visit; my best recommend if shopping without a broker is to use Global Plane Search (GPS). You will get all planes offered on all websites at one location, and you can determine what is new to the market or what has been sitting for awhile. If you are looking for a plane that does not come on the market as often, checking GPS regularly will let you beat the crowd who may not be getting around to checking as often.

As far as sites for people who own their planes, there are plane-specific ones. We belong to the Beech Aero Club (BAC) and there is a Piper Owners Society. If you Google \"plane owners club\" you'll find a few. We don't have a specific forum here for Plane Owners discussion. I'm not sure how popular it would be. But I'd be happy to share our experiences thus far with ownership.
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8823

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Thanks for the reply Chris. Wow thats not bad at all (2500). I know some people who pay more for car insurance!

May I ask what type of experience you have? I.e Private or Commercial/Ratings hours (only rough ofcourse if you dont mind, just to use as a gauge).

If I can't balance my personal finances with the costs of a seaplane, I'll go the landplane. I've always wanted my own plane. It must feel great to be able get in and start it up and call it your own!

Or go somewhere for a weekend \"flight school pressure free\" thats a biggy for me, I want the freedom of being able to take an aircraft somewhere, park it until Im ready to go.;)
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8824

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But I'd be happy to share our experiences thus far with ownership.

If you have spare time please do! Im sure there are others also very interested in this. Im all ears anything from operating costs to personal experiences with owning. Thanks Chris!
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8829

Dodge,

My wife and I were both student pilots with less than 40 hours between us when we bought the plane last August 2006 and purchased the insurance. We included a rider for an instructor in the right seat, and later added our instructor as a PIC at no cost so we could thank him with some no cost flying. I was licensed in January 2007 and currently have under 110 hours.

The decision to purchase a plane came after my wife and I built a second home on Manitoulin Island, an average 7 hours away; longer on long weekends with traffic. We wanted to access the property more often, so we decided to learn to fly together. We agreed that if we were enjoying the flying piece, we would look at purchasing our own aircraft. Two months into ground school, with a few flights under our belts, we decided we would look at purchasing.

I had already begun reading a lot about flying and plane ownership, but I am neither a mechanic nor an experienced plane purchaser so I suggested that we use a broker. At that point we had narrowed down what we wanted in an aircraft. Keep in mind, this is before we really had a sense of what ownership was going to cost us. We short-listed the Cherokee 6 and the C182. Using the web-searching strategy I shared in my last post, I found a 6-300 that I liked, and called about it. It was an old link and I got nowhere with the phone number, except to learn that the plane has sold. I had the registration so I found the owner's name on the TC registry, and did a canada411 on the name. I successfully contacted the owner who spoke glowingly about the Piper 6 and gave me the information of the broker he used, a guy who was local to us.

I contacted the broker, Keith Rondeau, a great guy who was happy to help... to be continued.
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8831

Sorry, got dragged away for a bit.

The things to know when buying, that I had gathered from all the research were:

1. Use a broker
2. Always get a pre-purchase inspection done by your own AME
3. Every AME will find something else wrong with the plane
4. Buy a plane with a platform that you can build on (i.e. could be IFR certified)
5. Importing a plane is a nightmare
6. Importing is no big deal
7. There are too many planes on the market to bother with one that has had damage.
8. Not all damage history is recorded.
9. Log books are a must.
10. Brokers are snakes.


As you can see, there was alot of risk involved in the process, and everyone has an opinion about the process when it's not their money getting spent. As I said, my broker was a good guy. In the end, I learned from him, and paid for his services in doing so, but elected to purchase a plane that I was able to find on my own. We paid for three pre-purchase AME inspections on 3 planes at a cost of about $300 each, plus airfare for my broker and I to go to Calgary to see a tired looking but perfectable acceptable Cherokee 235, and airfare for me to fly to Halifax to rule out a corroded Piper Archer. On the recommendation of our broker, we had started to consider something smaller and less powerful; he was concerned about us being able to stay ahead of the aircraft. We had also decided on our budget and we really were not prepared to move too far up from it.

Through GPS (see earlier post), I spotted a 1975 Beechcraft Sundowner on the market only 4 days, available in Canada, and selling privately. When I called the owner, he was happy to fly it down to us for our AME to do the inspection. The plane was within our budget, and though I had concerns about reports on NTSB I had been reviewing regarding the landing gear, there were an equal number of reports that the LG was sturdy and not a problem. The other concern I had about the C23 was the scarcity of parts in Canada and elsewhere. That still is a concern, but through the Beech Aero Club, there is an active effort to obtain reasonably priced parts for members.

Our AME was impressed with the overall condition of the plane and the powerplant, but was able to find a cracked cylinder and exhaust. The owner was terrific...he was unwilling to fly until our AME fixed the plane at the owner's cost...he allowed my AME to pull a cylinder and do an internal inspection of the camshaft - usually costly and most sellers are reluctant to allow this - as the cam was in great shape (no corrosion) and everything else appeared to be in order, we purchased. The owner took us up to get some time on type which helped with insurance and familiarity. None of our instructors had flown much low-wing time, let alone a Sundowner. They were excited when they saw the C23 on the line. Aircraft Purchase: $57,300 CAD plus taxes (and they will coming collecting). You can avoid GST when you purchase from a private owner and the plane is registered privately. Our plane was unfortunately registered in the owner's business name.


Next step: Hangar

Post edited by: cvander, at: 2007/03/09 15:03<br><br>Post edited by: cvander, at: 2007/03/09 15:05
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8833

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Thanks Chris,

Thats some great advice and insight about your purchasing experience. Can't wait to hear about storage etc.

Which airport do you keep your plane at up on Manitoulin? Im from Toronto but my little brother is up there right now playing for Manitoulin Islanders Jr. A, hes living with a family in Little Current.

Very fun to go watch, BEAUTIFUL island (and flight). I love it up there. Bridal Veil falls is gorgious. Again thanks for all the information and experiences. I think (from what I believe and reading it) the purchase process is the most stressful part of owning.
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8834

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Very interesting stuff. Karma+1 for you Chris!!!:cheer:
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8835

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I have had float plane insurance for almost 4 years now, on my C-172, and $2500 sounds about right for \"Not-in-motion\". However, when you get to over 50 hrs. PIC on floats, you have an option for full complete hull coverage. My last year's was $3000. Not much difference! And it's worth it. Highly recommend you check with AON - friendly, fast service.
Good luck flying floats, and have fun.
EB
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8837

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For an est. of insurance cost try Ontario Aviation Insurance in Toronto. 416-441-3333 ask for Paul.
particluarily for float planes.
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8839

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Volition Very interesting stuff. Karma+1 for you Chris!!!

Definatley, some great advice Chris, and to eckobravo and Thom aswell:)
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8848

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In response to what Chris said about importing an aircraft, and how you hear different stories from different people. I imported my 172 from the US 2 years ago. We purchased it from a dealer in the states. I don't think it would be a safe decision to try and import a plane being sold by a private seller, because (as Chris said) it is best to have your own AME do a pre-purchase, and you need to have a very cooperative motivated seller on the other end if you want to import.

If you talk to the people who have horror stories with doing imports, I find they usually rushed into the purchase and overlooked many Transport Canada steps, and made their experience quite unpleasant. Another thing people overlook in an attempt to save money is avoiding an Export Certificate of Airworthiness. Having that certificate on top of a solid pre purchase should make you more worry free. It is issued by an american DAR (designated airworthiness representative), and is not mandatory but recommended. Also, talk to Transport Canada before you make any commitments and explain exactly what you want to do, and find out what you have to do. Also contact your nearest Minister's Delegate, who conducts the import inspection and issues your Canadian C of A. There is a large document that must be filled out to complete the import process - the MSI 26 form. The first part of that form confirms the aircraft's eligibility for importation into Canada. This is another step overlooked by people - it has to be done, and if you are going to have a problem importing this is where you would most likely come across your problem - and it CAN be done before you make any commitments, you just need to get some info from the seller to fill it out (if they aren't willing to help, there's your opening to say goodbye to that seller). All that goes in this part is the type certificate, make, model, year,etc, and model and serial number of the airframe engine and propellor.

Where people run into problems is when they have a plane that has been modified so that it no longer meets the standard type certificate for the aircraft model. Our inspector told us a story of when someone tried to import a C177 Cardinal, and had a prepurchase done, and flew it into Canada, deregistered with FAA, and found out during the import inspection that the incorrect model of propellor was installed on the plane with no special type certificate. So, a C of A could not be issued. Again, this is checked in the eligibility check that can be done by simply emailing or calling the seller to get the required information to do it.

Anyway, it is considerably more work than just buying a Canadian plane. The only reason I did it was because I could not find a plane in Canada with 90% of what I wanted already installed. I heard from many people that avionics work is extremely expensive to do, and you get very little of it back when you go to sell. I kept finding planes that either had one or the other. For example, good interior, bad paint, good engine time. Or, good P & I, but a timed out engine, and bad avionics. I didn't really want to purchase a plane and have to do work on it right away. Just never found the right combination until I looked in the US (there are A LOT of planes for sale there). I found a 172 with IFR GPS, DME and good interior with good paint and a medium time engine with excellent maintenance history - it was one of the only planes I found with everything I wanted, and our AME confirmed it was 100% flawless. So needless to say, I'll be flying it this weekend! lol

PS-Sorry for the long post!
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #8858

Chapter 4 - Storage

Outside is cheap...and ultimately costly in the deterioration of the aircraft in our damp summers and wet winters. Hangar storage is a must. I priced out paying for hangar space at CYHM versus buying our own hangar. Rather than run the risk of hangar rash, we opted for buying a hangar at our home airport, CZBA. I figured that over a number of years, we'd save money by buying.

Cost of hangar: $26,000
Land lease and hydro: less than $200 per month
Insurance: not too bad

Chapter 5 - Maintenance and Operations

This is where you'll get clobbered. Fuel is $1.35 a litre last I checked, and we burn about 9 gallons per hour or 34 litres per hour.

We just had the annual and 5 year prop inspection done. I purchased a UBG-16 engine analyzer and had the shop install it. Seatbelts were upgraded. The bill came to $4000 in parts, labour and inspections. And we snag things as we go along too; that on-going maintenance can add up too. If you don't look after things right away they can become costlier items down the road - higher repair costs, potential damage to engine, loss of life.

Chapter 6 - Other

I'm pretty safety-conscious when it comes to plane ownership and flying. I do a weight and balance before every flight - no guess work. I do the flight planning for every cross country. My wife and I agreed that we should increase our chances of survival by purchasing a traffic avoidance system of some sort. I opted for the ZAON PCAS XRX for $2000. I'm also getting the shop to install a remote in the cockpit for the ELT. More money.

The interior of the plane is original...not in terrible shape but we love the damn thing now and we talk about what she'd look like with a nice interior and a new paint job. We priced this stuff out before for a Piper 235 and it was close to $15000 to revitalize the plane.

Glad people are interested. Andrew hit all the right points about importing. Done the proper way and well planned out, it should go smoothly. Should, but not always. If you can't find what you're looking for in Canada, the US market may be the answer. They have tons to check out.<br><br>Post edited by: cvander, at: 2007/03/10 05:01
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #9021

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The plane we really wanted initially was a Lake Amphibian. Going with straight floats was not a usefull option for me. The big problem was insurance.

\"They want 20 hours of dual, then 35 hours solo, then I can do the water training for 15 hours and then I think I need another 20 hours and they will fully insure me. The charge is approx. $4700.00 but it is only liability insurance, and hull for when you are parked on the ground (in addition the liability for passengers is restricted until you have something like 60 hours). The real hooker is what the rate will be the following year, and it is looking fairly expensive.\"

That was based on a pilot who had over 200 hours in a 172. So you could see that - you'd spend a year+ flying the thing around with no \"in motion\" coverage. Which is OK if you can afford to write-off the aircraft. Not OK for me. So that is what led me to go for a more complex plane such as the Cardinal RG. Between the RG, the CS prop, and the 200HP - I figured that when the time comes to get into an Amphib - the Insurance Gods might be more favourable. That and after flying Brantford's Cutlass - I found the RG combination to be a whole lot of fun.

There are two essential resources for estimating your operational costs. Join COPA and use there Excel program for estimating Operating costs. They also have a guide for buying an aircraft. I found both of these to very helpfull.

www.copanational.org/non-members/index.htm<br><br>Post edited by: flying_celt, at: 2007/03/18 11:14
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #9022

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Hi Chris,

I looks like I'm a little behind the exact same curve as you. My partner and I bought the plane in February. We would ideally like to have our plane at CZBA as well. At the moment we have a great hangar at CYFD (electric door / paved etc). It's only $35-/ month. The drive from the West end of Hamilton is not much more. It might take a while for us to find the right one at Burlington.

Can you tell me a bit more about your engine analyzer, it is early on our list of improvements as well. If you combine it with GAMI injectors you can save a least 1 GPH which adds up. It's funny how owning your own plane makes you a much more interested engine leaner!

We want to improve the seatbelts - put 3 point type in the back or possibly put the 4 point retrac type in as well. What did you do to your seatbelts? I've got 2 children so I don't want to skimp on the back seats. The XRX is on the list as well.
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Re:Float plane insurance 10 years 7 months ago #9025

The seatbelt situation is not exactly resolved yet. Our AME did not feel comfortable with the retracts that had been evidently tampered with. He installed fixed, adjustable shoulder and lap belts similar to the C172. Problem is you have to keep the shoulder belt loose enough to reach the fuel selector on the floor which makes the shoulder harness ineffective, and fiddling with it during flight is not conducive to safety. He went this route as proper retracts are apparently about $500 a pop. Guess what we're saving up for now?

I bought our EI UBG-16 from Aircraft Spruce off Dixie Road near the airport. The following description can be found anywhere on the web from dealer websites:
UBG-16 Electronics International Engine Analyzer

The Ultimate Bar Graph Engine Analyzer - E. I. has been manufacturing analyzers that are relied upon by thousands of pilots around the world since 1980. The Ultimate Bar Graph Engine Analyzer (model UBG-16) is the most sophisticated instrument in our arsenal. Its unique features were designed to provide you with the ultimate tool for detecting engine problems in their earliest stages and assisting you in operating your engine safely and economically.

UBG-16 Specifications:

Up to 16 Temperatures/Functions
All Programming done Easily from the font panel
16 Programmable individual High Limits
16 Programmable individual Low Limits
Programmable EGT Differential Alarm
Programmable Shock Cooling Alarm
Programmable range for bar graph display
Programmable Scan Rate
Automatic True Peak detect eliminates false peaks
Calculates temperature below peak automatically
Fuel/Air Mixture Profiling
Normalized mode with long term memory for easy problem detection
Crisp Clear Display
Stable 1 Degree Resolution
Electronics International's well known long lasting probes
Functions available: EGT/CHT, TIT, Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, Fuel Pressure, Fuel Flow (Flow ONLY), Manifold Pressure, OAT, Carb., Cowl Temp, Other Temp, Gyro Vacuum, RPM, Bus Voltage w/ Amps (Counts as two functions)
Includes: 6' Cables and 9 Probes

Mine came with a Flight Recorder which will save engine data during an event and can be downloaded to your computer via the included software and hardware hookups. I may at some point add the RPM function as a backup to my tach. Our Be23 is a pretty simple little craft and my main objective in getting the analyser was to preserve the overtime engine as long as possible, and still have a platform that would be useful down the road. So far so good. My fuel consumption with the leaning method from the UBG-16 is right out of the POH for the specified RPMs.
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Need suggestions for Good Flight School Around GTA 3 weeks 4 days ago #21065

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