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TOPIC: Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment?

Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18248

  • Hendrix
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Hey guys, I think I may have asked this again but I want to be more clear I don't want to bump the other threads.

So I want to become a pilot. I want to flying a 747 one day thus my main goal is to either fly for AC or move to USA and fly for Delta. I am going to be graduating high school this year and I have applied to some universities already. Waterloo's aviation and science program, Western's Aviation Management program, Seneca's bachelors in applied technology aviation program and Ryerson's Aerospace engineering program.

I got only 1 acceptance so far (03/03/10) and It's at Ryerson! I would expect Ryerson to be hard to get into since Aerospace engineering is its top engineering course. The thing is that I was thinking of going to Western. Westerns cut-off mark was I don't know I am guessing around 80 somewhere because it asks for mid 80 average overall for acceptance. I even had to write an essay. I really do not want to go to a collage and I want to take the university route ( I took all university level courses all my life in high school) and I see that airlines are looking for people that are more academically qualified. That's why since I am accepted to Ryerson, I am dropping the thought of going to Seneca, although the flight program is good there, it just does not please me as much since the admission average is 65! My parents said money is not the problem but I think they are lying because we are in debt :P but they said they will support me in whatever I do so I will trust them.

Waterloo is far and the aviation program is not really talked about so I am assuming it is not as good. So I am not considering Waterloo either.

I am really considering Westerns program because it is highly talked about and the university seems like a wonderful place. The flight training I doubt it is as good as Seneca's as Seneca states more hours (over 300) while western states 260 hours approx. Anyways both are not enough to get into an airline like AC (min 1000 hours right?).

I am very scared about my future if I take Western only because what If I do not end up in an airline. How will I pay for my hours? Where could I work? What kind of jobs can I get with the Aviation Management Degree by itself? I think that I would like to take the instructor approach but does Western offer any internships? Will it be easy to get a job like that and how long would I have to work to get 1000 hours starting at 200 flight hours approx? I want to get in an airline before 28 is that possible? I do like flying but I do not want to fill up gas for planes at the airport.

Now If I go to Ryerson, I will get a bachelors in Aerospace Engineering. The only thing I do not like is the fact that its engineering. With all maths stuff which I do not like. I do like physics but I do not know if I like engineering. The reason I want to do this program is because let's face it, Aerospace Engineering is really high stuff. Maybe it's possible to do it with flight training from a local club on the side, but since this program is hard, I might have to do my flight training after the 4 years of stress and struggling. After those 4 years , I can find a job in aerospace. I heard that Ryerson offers internship with Bombardier so that's a big plus. I will be making allot of money with the degree ( I think right?). The money can be used to rent planes and get my hours, or pay for all the licence training. Not only that, but when I apply to Air Canada (CA), since there are obviously many applicants than jobs, they will filter out the bad ones and see that my resume has an aerospace degree from Ryerson.

Now this is only what I am thinking right now, I do not know if this is a reasonable plan but please tell me what u think about this. Another plus about going to Ryerson is that my brother goes there too and he said he might rent a place there so I can stay there instead of paying much more for Ryerson residence. Also, Ryerson is not that far from my house so if I don't end up living close by, I can always train or bus home. I just really don't like the fact that the program is hard( I could fail) and that It might just be a waste of time since my main goal is to be a Commercial Airline Pilot which really doesn't use all the knowledge given to me by the degree. But the degree is a preferable backup.

What do you honestly think I should do? I know there might not be much airline pilots here on the forums but please try and help me out. Which approach should I take in this journey into aviation? Ryerson or Western and why?

(Sorry for such a long message, thank you so much for reading)

-hen555
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Re:Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18249

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The question you need to ask yourself is: Do you want to be a pilot and fly the plane, or do you want to be an engineer and design the plane and its components? If you want to be a pilot then I would not hesitate to go to Seneca (nothing wrong with the Sault either, but Seneca is as close to university you'll get without doing it) - it is an aviation based engineering program (B. Tech degree - basically a watered down engineering degree). I attended Seneca for first year in the degree program, and decided the pilot lifestyle is not for me, but I really did like the courses I was taking so I moved on to mechanical engineering, and fly for recreation on the side. There are courses I took at Seneca in first year that covered material I learned in 2nd and 3rd year mech eng - in fact I got full credit for one of them.

Seneca gives you the best flying experience because it is based on flying, and almost all your professors and instructors there have worked in the aviation industry - one was a flight test engineer for Canadair and DeHavilland, another is an ex-military pilot with well over 10,000 hours flying experience, another flew charter operations for years. So, they know what you need to know to be a pilot. You get about 200 hours flight experience and the other 100 hours are simulator hours. You will also graduate Seneca with the ATPL exams complete, and once you accumulate 1500 hours you will have the ATPL. At Western, you do your flight training with Empire, which is fine, but what I don't know is how your training there as a Western student is any better than if you walked in off the street and learned to fly there.

As for money, you will most certainly make more money as an engineer than you will as a pilot (at least until you get into a senior position at an airline). However, remember if you want to be a pilot, you are doing it because you like it, and don't want to sit at a desk behind a computer all day - not to make money. Someone said this, and I can't think of a better way to put it: flying is a rich man's hobby, and a poor man's career!

If your academics are strong and you can do the Aerospace engineering, go ahead and do it. There were 2 students in my class at Seneca who dropped out of Aerospace eng because they couldn't stand it. That is purely a matter of preference, but from what you're saying that you don't like math, it's a tough call on engineering. First year math in engineering is similar to what you have at Seneca - anything engineering related (Seneca included) requires you to take courses in differential equations, and algebra that some people really struggle with. I don't know what Western does, but my understanding is that it's more business based than engineering based, which I don't see anything wrong with. However, the engineering background behind your flight experience makes you more mechanically minded IMO.

Have you done much flying now? I think it's important to do a lot of flying before you set yourself down a career path in flying. My reason for choosing engineering was so I had lots of options down the road, and it's what I like. Business type courses that I would have taken at Western were not interesting to me. Yes engineering is a lot of work - not THAT hard, but high volume of work! If you enjoy what you're learning, you won't mind the work.

There you go - I read your long one, now you read mine! :D
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Re:Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18280

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I read it all, thx for replying :)

I think seneca is a great place to learn aviation but I also want to live a university life in these next years. I really think seneca is the best if you want to be a pilot but is its degree a good backup? I really do want to be a pilot and fly commercially for an airline but I am scared that I wont get a job in an airline and might end up giving up. I mean look at all the people that arent airline pilots who planned to be. They have to try really hard to make enough money that they planned to make as an airline pilot because they either dont have a degree, or they dont have a good degree. I do want to be rich when im grown up, I want to be able to drive bmw's , live in a nice home. But I want to make this kind of money doing something I love and thats flying. If I cant be a pilot then I would want to do something that could make alooot of money like engineering and since aerospace is like aviation engineering, it wud be the perfect backup. As I mentioned yes it is hard and I am not good in all these tough classes like engineering but i wuold prefer this backup over a business backup at western.

I just dont know if I will get a job with my flight licences and a degree in lets say aviation management or applied technology thats why I dont know if I shud take aereospace. my friend keeps telling me that I wont become a pilot. He discourages me and I tell him I know Il be a pilot but he is telling me this because it is honostly what he feels. He said like the world wont need pilots later on since we already have the technology to run planes on computers by itself. He says that the airline industry is doing bad aircanada is not even doing that well. He just laughs at me and says that he will drive his bmw 335i while i drive my honda civic lol. He is doing aerospace and he is a smart guy but he pissis me off because he discourages me and laughs. Anyways, do you think that I will be able to get a job in an airline if I have just a degree in aviation managment and around 1500 hours? Also my plan was to get the hours by becomming an instructor, is it easy to get a job as an instructor? Also how long wud I have to work as an instructor to finally get a job in an airline?



Also do you know much about the waterloo science aviation program? Is that good or better than western or seneca?
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Re:Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18283

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When you list your priorities as being rich, driving bmw, living in a nice home, you put this goal out that you will always be trying to compare your current situation to and that may discourage you during your progress. Whether you take the route of becoming a pilot, or becoming an engineer, or anything, it will all take hard work, determination, many many years, lots of failures and some successes along the way. There is no shortcut with any option that you choose, and there is no one backup that is better or worse than another - it's all at how you push yourself and how you deal with the disappointments. To become a pilot, you may get lucky and score an early job with a charter airline, or you may have to grind it out teaching, or something else for a few years building up your experience. In engineering, you may work super hard to get great grades and then realize that you cannot apply it to the real world and you will stagnate at 90K per year without pursuing a Masters or PhD.

If you are looking for validation here from the community that you can get those hours and its easy, you won't find it. Every professional pilot here has worked hard and spent a lot of money to get where they are, with many of them second guessing their decision along the way at least once. No matter what path you choose, it is up to you to follow it and not be swayed from your goal by something as frivolous as your friend ragging on you. We are told the word 'No' every day a thousand times, it is up to us to ignore it and pursue our passions.
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Re:Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18286

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I do want to be rich when im grown up, I want to be able to drive bmw's , live in a nice home. But I want to make this kind of money doing something I love and thats flying. If I cant be a pilot then I would want to do something that could make alooot of money like engineering and since aerospace is like aviation engineering, it wud be the perfect backup.
Unless you are a top athlete or a movie star, it's hard to make a lot of money doing something fun. If your goal in life is to drive luxury cars and live in a nice house in a rich neighbourhood go to a law school. Having said that, I suggest that you go for something you really want to do, work hard and you'll make a decent living. If you think you can make a lot of money doing something you don't like, you'll end up hating every minute you spend at work and your luxury \"toys\" won't make you happy; moreover, you probably won't be successful in that profession anyway because you won't be motivated.

Have you ever met with a career counselor? I think it might be a good idea. Also there are tests that can give you an indication of which jobs match your personality type.
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Re:Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18288

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I think Deuce summed it up well. Something I have learned is that your career interests may change over time, but your core interests probably won't. You probably have some idea of what you like from what you've taken in high school. I figured out in high school that courses like English, history, or any couses that involved extensive amounts of reading and writing. Science and math courses really appealed to me, so engineering, science, pure mathematics were the best options. If you're looking for flexibility, engineering is probably the best, IMO aerospace is fairly specialized and my GUESS would be that enrollment is limited for it. There are also engineering and management programs offered that are 5 years ( heavy 5 years) but you come out with a well rounded education and the option of finishing an MBA in 1 additional year. As I'm learning, you will need a masters to really make a lot of money.

Bear in mind that you will spend A LOT more money by doing an engineering degree (more expensive than most other undergrad programs), and doing your flight training on the side. Seneca is partially subsidized by the government so it is really cheap flight training for what you are getting. What the Seneca degree can do for you if you need to get a job elsewhere was something I wasn't sure of and was part of the reason I left Seneca.

Why not pick aviation and run with it? Once you get your career settled with a company making decent money you should at least be able to afford a used BMW to shut your friend up! My response to his comment about pilots eventually being nonexistant would be that he is dreaming. The reason we pay pilots to sit there and watch the computer do most of the flying right now is because they know there is no way for a computer to think like a human can when an emergency arrives. Not to mention it will be very hard to convince someone to ride on a plane with nobody at the controls. Don't let your friend bother you.
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Re:Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18289

You have to do what you want to do. I can almost guarantee you, you will not walk into an airline job right off the bat. You have to prove you can be trusted with a $200K plane before they let you anywhere near the controls of a million dollar aircraft. Everyone I know who wants to be an airline pilot spends every moment they can flying. School is great and it will be needed in the long run to move up in a company. I am curious as to see how you see your career progressing. Starting with 0hrs what would you do to eventually end up in the left seat at ACA or Delta.

Another thing, a university degree may not make your resume stand out. They will more than likely go over your resume looking at your experience. What have you done in your life that an owner can trust you with his aircraft. Why you? A lot of people lose track of this. Having degrees out the ying yang won't do much to prove that. However, working at a flying club and getting to know people in the industry will help. It's a small community and every flying club has some connection to a flying club or training facility. Last thing you want is a bad reputation which a lot of people get by doing it for the money and thinking they are gods gift to aviation. Seen it before and it does not bode well.

What you need to do is choose a route that suits you, if flying is what you want to do then do it. If you're in it for the money then choose a different job. The money is slim to begin with but hitting it big is like winning the lottery.

An instructor once told me that to make a small amount of money in aviation you have to start with a lot of money. I am finding that out. I recently just started a Charter company flying out of Gatwick. I operate 2 PC12's and a S76A helicopter providing Air Ambulance Services. It's been a long road getting to this level and I hve exhausted every resource I had. Another bit of advice is to never burn any bridge, you never know when you may need it's support.

Best of luck in your endeavours
Last Edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Ian McDermott. Reason: spelling
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Re:Aerospace Engineering or Aviation Managment? 7 years 10 months ago #18290

Do what makes you happy, not what makes you rich.
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Need suggestions for Good Flight School Around GTA 3 months 3 weeks ago #21047

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