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TOPIC: Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D

Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 1 week ago #12345

  • J Kingston
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Just a few questions or clarifications:

1. When approaching an airport to land in controlled airspace if you are simply vectored around you just follow instructions until you are on final and cleared to land, right? Now if you are cleared to any part of the circuit (say cleared left base for a runway) do you proceed with normal circuit operations such as at an uncontrolled airport? Since you are cleared to the circuit and not simply being vectored can you make your base and final turns yourself and only need to make sure you have landing clearance before you actually touch down or do you still wait until the controller tells you to turn? If you do the turn by yourself I would imagine you just make a radio call such as \"xxx tower yyy is turning left base for 33\" as you would make to traffic in a normal circuit, right?

2. Same as above but at an airport with a radio instead of a tower - I know that unlike an uncontrolled airport you can be cleared straight in final but do you need clearance to land or is it more like an uncontrolled airport just with a radio to deal with slightly more traffic? When flying into an airport with a radio do you need to be cleared to do everything or do you just have to tell them what you are going to do?

3. I am somewhat confused about the difference between a tower and a radio. I realize you need clearance to enter class C and only 2 way communication to enter class D but does the tower have more authority than a radio? What I mean is are instructions from a tower more like orders where as instructions from a radio are more like suggestions? (I know in the end the responsibility still lies with the pilot to only accept clearances/instructions which are safe).

For example if you were departing from a larger airport you would call ground (or even clearance delivery first) and let them know where you are parked and where your destination is and they will direct you to a runway and then you need clearance from tower to enter the runway and depart. At a smaller airport where it is just the radio the entire way do you still need clearances or is it more like an uncontrolled airport? Would you call the radio and tell them where you are going and they will direct you to a runway and then you need to get clearance to take off? Or are they just there moreso for information and traffic monitoring but the final decision to enter the runway and depart is up to you and you can do so without a clearance?

Sorry if these questions seem silly but I am just trying to understand the proper distinction and radio procedures. I want to make sure I am able to do everything I am supposed to without going overboard and wasting anyone's time by doing things that are unnecessary or that may cause confusion for other pilots / ATC

Thank-you in advance!
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 1 week ago #12350

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1) Simply do as the tower says, acknowledge, and say no more (ie. no calls turning base, final, etc. unless they ask you to \"call when established on base\"). If you are told \"ABC cleared to the straight in left base 27\", simply join the circuit on the base leg, turn final, and of course wait for the clearance to land - if you don't get clearance, you must go around.

2) I think you are referring to a mandatory frequency (MF) here. These are airports with a Class E airspace ring around them. However, take care to check the CFS Comm part of the airport listing to figure out who to contact. The airport may not be an MF, but an RCO, or just an area of controlled airspace deemed necessary for IFR traffic. I don't know where you fly, but I'll use some examples of some southern Ontario airports you can look up in the CFS. One is Peterborough (CYPQ) - Has a Class E ring around it, but just an ATF (aerodrome traffic frequency) as listed in the CFS. Another is St. Catharines/Niagara District (CYSN) - Has the class E ring, and it's an MF, and it's listed in the CFS that you contact St. Catharines Radio on a certain frequency. Another is Sarnia (CYZR) - This has an ATF and an RCO. The RCO is listed as London radio on 126.7 - you need to contact them to get permission to enter the class E airspace around Sarnia, and then once the permission is obtained, you switch over to the ATF, and proceed like any other uncontrolled airport.

3) Like I said in #2, most airports are unique in their set of stations to contact. I get the idea of what you are referring to (the MF), but just be aware of the other types of configurations such as the RCO (remote communications outlet). You are more or less correct that the radio is mostly monitoring the frequency. The class E airspace around these airports essentially restricts VFR aircraft by imposing controlled airspace weather minima. You would call the radio and inform them of your intentions, and state them in an objective manner, that is, don't phrase it like you're asking for permission. You make radio calls like an uncontrolled airport, but you are allowed to make circuit entries like a controlled airport. For example, you can join straight in final, or the downwind on a 45degree angle. On the ground, you tell the radio, \"ABC is taxiing to 30 northbound departure\". So, on an MF, there are no clearances, just advisories of your intentions, and the radio will advise you of other conflicting traffic, but you have to provide your own separation.

One correction - you need a clearance to enter Class C AND D. The difference between C and D is that C is that a mode C transponder is required, whereas D requires no transponder. Class C also provides traffic separation to VFR and IFR aircraft, whereas D doesn't unless the workload permits. Also, NORDO aircraft can enter Class D with prior permission.

WOW that was long! I hope that clears it up - don't worry about asking, these are important things to learn on the ground, and not in the air!
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 1 week ago #12360

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tcooper wrote:
Unless the rules have changed and nobody told me...
You don't need anything to enter class E, except to meet the weather minima for controlled airspace.

The vast majority of airspace over Southern, Eastern, and SouthWestern Ontario, for instance, is class E.
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 1 week ago #12362

  • Michael Oxner
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We need a few corrections to the above posts, here.

Class C and D airspace are different for VFR flights. Class C requires a clearance from ATC, and like IFR, you shouldn't deviate from it without asking for permission from ATC unless the safety of the airplane is in immediate question. For example, if ATC told you to maintain a specific heading or altitude, you notice that this instruction will force you into IFR weather and the radio is too congested to get through to ATC right away. In such a case, make the deviation from the clearance, and as soon as possible afterward advice ATC that you have deviated, give them the reason, and tell them what you have done (climbed, descended, turned, etc). A transponder is required to enter Class C airspace unless specifically authorized by ATC.

Class D airspace requires that you make radio contact. Technically, it's legal to enter if you call the tower or ACC/TCU and they say \"standby\", since many will argue that two-way communication has been established. ATC has authority to direct your flight, but a clearance in the same sense as Class C is not expected. Class D airspace may require a transponder. If it does, it will be charted and noted as such in the Designated Airspace Handbook (DAH) as \"Transponder Airspace\". The DAH is available online. Many Class D control zones across the country are not designated as Transponder Airspace to allow aircraft without transponders to enter, such as if the transponder needs servicing. Also, there are many such CZs surrounded by Class D airspace where the terminal area is designated as Transponder Airspace but the CZ itself is not. In all cases where the terminal area is Class D, it will have a \"floor\", meaning it's OK to fly underneath without a transponder. In these cases, you'll also likely be flying beneath the floor of the Class D airspace itself, therefore not requiring you to make contact. The big reason for a terminal area to be classified this way is to raise the weather minima for VFR flight and to increase the control authority over VFR flights to help maintain a safety margin with IFR flights and between VFR and VFR.

Class E airspace may be designated as Transponder Airspace, as well. You can find this on charts and again in the DAH. In fact, all controlled airspace (Class E and higher) in radar coverage in Canada above 10,000 feet is Transponder Airspace. The trick is to find out where you're in radar coverage. There is a diagram in the AIM showing approximately where the boundaries are. Class E is controlled airspace (consider this for weather minima when flying VFR), and exists around airways and over much of the populated areas throughout Canada.

For the note about Sarnia: There is no requirement to contact London Radio on 126.7 for any kind of permission to enter the airspace around it. Radio doesn't have the authority to grant or deny permission. Making a broadcast on 126.7 with your position and intentions gives other pilots in the area tuned to 126.7 the opportunity to reply if they happen to be where you want to go, aiding in having you two avoid each other. The RCO is listed since it is a facility at Sarnia allowing a pilot to make contact with London Radio there if required. The ATF, however, is important, and you should be on this frequency if you have a working radio when you're in the vicinity of the airport. That's where other aircraft will be, but there may also be aircraft without a functioning radio around an airport with an ATF.

At this point, it would be good to review the AIM's section on airport operations in the RAC section, since there are differences between what's allowable at an MF airport versus an airport with only an ATF (joining straight-in on final, for example).

On to the airport stuff: It seems you have a grasp on what to do with a tower. Follow instructions where provided, and if they say, \"cleared to the circuit\" or \"join right base\", you simply fly as you normally would without waiting for the tower to provide you with permission to turn. It's implied with the joining instructions.

For Radio (FSS), they are not permitted to direct flights on or around the airport. They are there to relay positions and intentions of flights to ensure that aircraft who are known to be in similar areas where they may conflict are aware of each others' presences to give the pilots every opportunity to coordinate their movements to avoid a conflict. They cannot tell you to turn or to maintain an altitude, nor can they authorize a movement opposite to an established traffic pattern. They cannot clear you to land, take-off, or issue taxi instructions. They can, however, provide directions to help you find you way around the airport, and suggestions that you may or may not accept. Where there is an FSS on site, it is normally (but not always) and MF, which means that other traffic should be making calls as well. This means that they may have information that you don't, so when they make suggestions, there may be a good reason to follow. But you are still on your own to make decisions on where and how you choose to operate.

The term \"controlled airport\" refers to an airport with a control tower operating (many close overnight, for example, and revert to uncontrolled status during these times as published in the CFS). The term \"uncontrolled airport\" covers everything else, whether the airport has an on-site FSS providing Airport Advisory Service (AAS), or an FSS providing AAS from another station (Remote AAS or RAAS), a Community Aerodrome Radio Station/Unicom, or indeed nothing at all.

And as far as I'm concerned, these questions aren't silly at all. Better you ask now and learn before the knowledge was needed. Besides, even if someone does think you're silly for asking, the longer you wait to ask, the sillier you look. No, I think this is a great discussion, and if you're asking, chances are there are others who want to know, too. Refreshers are good for all of us.
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 1 week ago #12363

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That's what I thought about Sarnia, but someone recently told me that you need a clearance to enter that area, which I thought was a little questionable.
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 1 week ago #12358

Unless the rules have changed and nobody told me...
You don't need anything to enter class E, except to meet the weather minima for controlled airspace.
Class D requires only two way communications, no clearance (and many Class D zones do require transponders - Ottawa for example).
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 6 days ago #12364

  • Michael Oxner
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About the Sarnia area I can only say this. My answer was a little quick on the draw and actually presumed the airspace is Class E. If that's the case, no permission or clearance is required. I should apologize for making such an assumption, and hope that I didn't lead anyone astray. As always, current publications should be consulted before making a flight into any area.

If the classification is higher than Class E (D or better), then a clearance (or just two-way communication in the event of Class D) is required. In any case, FSS has neither the authority nor the responsibility to approve or deny flight in any class of airspace. The class and dimensions of the airspace surrounding Sarnia would be depicted on a VFR Terminal Procedures (VTP) chart published in the Canada Flight Supplement (CFS) and contact information would be depicted including the ATC unit and the frequency.
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 5 days ago #12371

  • J Kingston
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Thanks for all the replies everyone - I appreciate the help.

I found this page which does clear things up a bit as well:

www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/AerodromeAirN...dards/AIS/new197.htm

So the only body that can give clearances (in the air) is a tower? Anywhere there is a radio it is essentially like broadcasting except there is actually someone central who collects all the information and provides it instead of just sending it out on the off chance that there is other traffic in the area? Towers are usually class C (and to a limited extent D?) whereas radios are usually found in class D (and class E where there is a control zone?)

Just to make sure I understand the terminology - a control zone means there can be a tower controlling it or else there will be an MF (such as a radio) meaning the MF procedures are in place but unless there is actually a tower a control zone doesn't mean you are \"controlled\" by clearances? I saw Michael Oxner's comment about \"controlled airport\" but as far as I can see the definition for \"control zone\" itself might be a little looser.

Say you are at a small airport in a control zone in class D with an MF being a radio. How do the radio calls differ from broadcasting in an uncontrolled area? Say you wanted to taxi to a runway and take off - you simply call the radio and let them know you are taking taxiway x to runway y (for a departure to wherever) and then hold short at the threshold and make sure you are clear of traffic (watch/listen) and then just call the radio and tell them you are positioning to takeoff on runway y? Or do you tell them where you are going and ask for information? Since you don't require clearances as long as you make sure you are clear of traffic you can move as at an uncontrolled airport and the radio will make suggestions? As far as backtracking goes do you just communicate a backtrack as you would at an uncontrolled airport?

While I'm sure it is simple once you get the hang of everything I just want to make sure I have everything straightforward since there seems to be a few different variations. Uncontrolled vs Controlled via tower seem to be pretty simple - it's the grayish area in between that seems to be a bit more confusing.

Just one semi-unrelated question - when you are flying and want to request flight following how do you know which areas are covered? (I would imagine it also depends on your altitude as well). I saw Michael Oxner mention there is a diagram in the AIM showing radar coverage boundaries - is it safe to assume that generally when you are within the defined boundaries you can call the appropriate ATC unit and (workload permitting) they can provide flight following?

Thanks again!
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Re:Flying in Controlled Airspace - Class C and D 10 years 4 days ago #12374

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You're catching on, but there are still a couple of areas which need to be clarified.

A Control Zone is controlled airspace which extends from the surface up to defined dimensions (like 5NM radius up to 3,500 ASL, for example). There may be a tower, but there may not. The airspace is a minimum of Class E, and would only be Class E if there is no tower operating. As soon as a tower begins operating, you're at least Class D airspace. If there is a need for more authority by ATC over the traffic flow, it could be classified higher, and the next step would be Class C. A CZ will not be classed higher than E unless a tower is operating. In the case where a tower operates less than 24 hours a day, the CZ reverts to Class E when the tower is closed, regardless of whether an FSS provides AAS or RAAS once the tower is closed.

The other terms \"Controlled Airport\" and \"Uncontrolled Airport\" are actually separate terms from Control Zone. It is only a controlled airport if there is an ATC tower in operation. In all other cases, it is an uncontrolled airport, even if there is someone on the ground to talk to. In these cases, there is nobody with any authority over the movement of airplanes on or around the airport. This means the pilots are on their own to make decisions about where to fly, when to enter a runway, how to join the circuit and where and when to taxi. Your calls on the radio are the same whether it's an on-site FSS providing AAS or an off-site FSS providing RAAS, a Unicom, or anything else. What is different is who you direct your calls to. In the case of an on-site FSS in an MF, you would make your calls to \"Saint John Radio\", for example, while in the case of an ATF, you may make your calls to \"Margaree Traffic\". This is where the COMM entries in the CFS come into play. If you have a copy, look through the introduction section before the airport listings and you'll see more information. Also, the AIM provides more insight in the COMM section regarding communications facilities and what to expect from them.

One little note: When I say \"pilots are one their own\" when it comes to deciding how and where to fly, they still must conform with regulations regarding joining the circuit and so forth. They just have nobody with authority to direct their flight in such cases. The regulations are established to make sure everyone knows what to expect from you and what you can expect from everyone else. This limits the number of surprises -- airplanes being somewhere they shouldn't.

Back to CZs for a second. The purpose of providing a CZ at an uncontrolled airport is to establish controlled airspace to the ground around an airport. There are two reasons for this. First, making it controlled airspace means raising the weather minima for VFR aircraft in the area, increasing the safety margin between IFR and VFR aircraft. Secondly, the CZ extending controlled airspace to the ground provides ATC with the authority (and the responsibility) to direct the operations of IFR aircraft through ATC clearances including runway assignments, turns after take-off, and authority over which instrument approach procedures are used by IFR aircraft.

Now, to review a little something about the classes of airspace. Since it's all published, I won't go into the details found in places like the AIM. But it remains the responsibility of the pilot to know what class of airspace he's operating in, what his responsibilities within it are, and just as important, what his rights are. For example, if a VFR pilot is operating in Class E airspace but talking to an ACC for flight following, and the controller tries to tell him to turn or maintain an altitude, the pilot should understand that the ATC unit has no authority over his flight. If the pilot is operating in Class C airspace, ATC now has authority over the flight, and a refusal to follow directions better have a valid reason. Such is also the case with a CZ. VFR aircraft cannot be directed by ATC (or anyone else) in a Class E CZ. They are subject to ATC instructions and clearances in Class D or C airspace.

Now that last statement about ATC in a Class E CZ may be confusing after what I just said. There is no tower in a Class E CZ, right? There are few circumstances I can imagine legitimately where a VFR pilot would be talking to ATC in a Class E CZ. The only cases might be where a VFR aircraft is trying to obtain approval for Special VFR flight and is doing do by talking directly to the ACC or TCU within whose airspace the airport lies. In such cases, the ACC/TCU would not be able to direct the flight of the VFR aircraft. They have no authority over the movements of VFR aircraft except that they may refuse authorization for SVFR. Now, outside a CZ, there are many cases where a VFR pilot may be in contact with ATC in Class E airspace, and the same thing applies -- ATC may not direct a VFR flight in Class E, and if they try to, a pilot is perfectly within his rights to choose another course of action besides what ATC suggests.

On to Flight Following. The chart that's in the AIM is a very vague guideline. It shows an approximate plot of what radar coverage should be in Canadian airspace at 10,000 feet ASL. As you noted, radar coverage depends on altitude, and terrain between you and a radar antenna may raise the floor of radar coverage. The radar horizon, as it's known, is also greatly affected by certain weather conditions. Also, sometimes radar failures occur, as does maintenance on the radar antennas. So, essentially, there is no way to know whether you're in radar coverage without asking ATC. If you want the service, call up and ask for it. If they can see you and have time to work with you, they'll do it. If not, they won't. There's no way to predict either side of that coin, so just call if you want it and see if they can.
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Need suggestions for Good Flight School Around GTA 2 weeks 5 days ago #21062

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