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TOPIC: Cold Weather Altimeter Error

Re:Cold Weather Altimeter Error 12 years 1 month ago #3678

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ATC wrote:
I suspect, though I'm not sure, that when MOCA's are established (and subsequently MRVAs) airpace designers would to some degree take into account margins of error for such factors as well. I'm awaiting a call back on airspace design.

So I've done my homework and spent some time with our local unit procedures specialist and discussed airspace design. My answer was correct but for the above quote, which I was not sure of to begin with.

It seems MOCA's do not have any additional 'fudge-factor' for cold temperature altimeter error. If you are flying at or near the MOCA on any given airway and calculate your altimeter error to be below that altitude, BE SURE to contact ATC for a climb to a suitable altitude.

Where Micheal was discussing approaches and radar vectors, we at control have additional altiudes that are used - and ARE corrected for the maximum possible error. These are called MVA, Minimum Vector Altitude, and while similar to a MSA they are not published for pilots and can be lower than an altitude on your CAP approach plate. The final issue that comes as a result of this is the lost comm procedures. All of these calculations are done for you the pilot while under radar vectors in a terminal or approach nvironment and so when you experience a comm failure in this environment you should climb to the published Min. IFR Altitude (RAC6.3.2.2,b):
If the failure occurs while being vectored at a radar vectoring altitude that is lower than a published IFR altitude, the pilot shall immediately climb to and maintain the appropriate minimum IFR altitude until arrival at the fix, route or airway specified in the clearance.

Hope that helps :whistle:
- YYZ ATC -
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Re:Cold Weather Altimeter Error 12 years 1 month ago #3685

  • Illo A Neri
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As an aside, I had a rather, uhm, atypical atc-pilot experience back in 2002 in BC.

I was flying a CP 140 Aurora out of Comox, and doing a trainer/tasking, which involved doing some valley work in the interior.

We filed IFR to a point (I wish I had a chart so I could make this more relevant...so I apologize if this is not as accurate as it could be...

I do recall being cleared to Princeton VOR, which had a transition into an IFR approach into a field east of there....can't for the life of me remember where. In any event, what I do recall was this - cleared to the VOR, descend to and maintain (for sake of argument) 11000 feet. Now - I was the co-joe, and the pilot looked at where we were (say, the 270 radial at 20 NM) and referred to the low chart, the approach plate, and realized - hey, that altitude is 800 feet lower than any depicted safe altitude or MOCA. We were not on an airway, and when he crossreferenced with an aiport beneath us, the lowest MSA was 11800.

So, correctly (IMHO) he tells me we cannot go that low. I agree, and reply back to Van Centre with \"Demon 11 cleared to Princeton, descend to and maintain 110000 - be advised, I am unable to accept 11000 direct the VOR, as the lowest safe altitude depicted is 11800, requesting 12000....\"

Here's where I got a little shocked. Vancouver comes back with \"What part of cleared to maintain 11000 didn't you understand Demon 11.\" No shit. Pretty well verbatim. We all got a bit of a start from that, and the boys in the plane thought uh oh - Igloo's gonna lay into him now (I believe in adversarial relationships with ATC....kidding...) I then say \"Understand - confirm I am under vectors at this time\"

Centre just says \"Listen Demon - you are cleared to Princenton VOR. Descend to and maintain 11000. Understand?\"

So, figuring this guy just hadn't had 'any' in the last decade - I figured - I'm clear and a million, I cna see any obstacles, we'll just comply and leave it at that. Which we did.

A phone call later with the supervisor ended up with this guy has never been questioned before on that clearance (on giving it to regionals and other commercial operators) and found me rather indignant with me questioning his judgement. he said the alitude assignment was in accordance with his Minimum Radar vectoring altitudes. I said fine - then put me on vectors. he came back with he knew where I was, and that the altitude was safe. I explained my responsibilities, and that unless I hear certain magic words, I cannot accept that. The conversation ended with somethin akin to you military guys just don't trust us to do our jobs.....and unfortunately the conversation ended with no resolution.

So. Ultimately - obsctacle clearance is the pilot's responsibility. If ATC helps, awesome. If I question, it is not because I do not trust a person, but CRM encompasses more than just the cockpit. It extends into IFRCCs. We easily could have resolved the conflict and kept everyone happy....oh well, lesson learned.

Funnily enough - about a year later I noticed the MSAs had changed on the approach plates to reflect the altitude I was cleared to. Funny that...

illo
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Re:Cold Weather Altimeter Error 12 years 1 month ago #3687

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Interesting discussions. Been away.

Illo, we don't depend on RADALTs for enroute work because the warning is going to come a little late. Temp corrections are too easy.

ATC, no, we don't \"modify\" ATC cleared altitudes for temps. Like you said, we'd just take the next up which would provide safety. Only place we flew altitudes other than the ATC cleared ones occurred at Thule, Greenland (BGTL). It was a USAF base and the approach plates said their ATC didn't temp correct. So we did and then told ATC what we were actually doing - and only when temp/terrain was a factor.

Illo, nice example out of Princeton (CYDC). The airport is Penticton (CYYF) and I was there last Friday. VFR direct Comox-Penticton at 7500 MSL, we had a minor deviation around terrain at 7227 just west of Penticton. The temp correction was about 200 feet.

Next day, the return was IFR filed YYF dct YDC dct MACAR (near Comox) dct UQQ at 10000. The overall MEA was 10000 and MOCA was 9500. Temp correction was 480 - therefore, our true altitude was 9520. Technically, we should have asked for 12000 but to put on O2 masks and it was such a beautiful day...
Support Your Local Search and Rescue Squadron... Get Lost!
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Re:Cold Weather Altimeter Error 12 years 1 month ago #3689

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Penticton - that's the one!

That's one thing I miss - VFR flying...and the two most incredible places for scenery in Canada have to be BC and the high Arctic - amazing...

Yup - I guess radalts are kinda useless approaching s sheer cliff....ah the joys of flying over water ;-)

Mind you - had the bejesus scared outta me once when we flew by an iceberg - we measured the top to be 500-600 feet....and we fly IMC down at 300....radar only picked it up under 6 miles....yikes!

illo
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Re:Cold Weather Altimeter Error 12 years 1 month ago #3692

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Illo A Neri wrote:
....he said the alitude assignment was in accordance with his Minimum Radar vectoring altitudes. I said fine - then put me on vectors. he came back with he knew where I was, and that the altitude was safe. I explained my responsibilities, and that unless I hear certain magic words, I cannot accept that. So. Ultimately - obsctacle clearance is the pilot's responsibility.
Funny story, and you are right. Technically we should say \"Demon 11, Radar vector to XXX VOR, proceed direct, maintain 11 thousand, XXX Altimiter...\" and there you'd know we are using altitudes below that witch you know about, our MVA's.
Now as for your adversarial relationships with pilots, I believe that all pilots...kidding.. :whistle:
As an aside to the whole topic, one additional issue I've found in talking to many pilots in this area is that not many pilots do these calculations outside the Military. This is due to the number of aircraft flying FMS equiped aircraft which calculates for them. The majority of other Pilots are generally flying Aircarft that neither operate during conditions where it is neccessary to correct, nor in environments where it is practice to do so. Exception being the far North. Most C-185s dont fly mountian passes with MOCA's of 9055' when the temperatures are -20.
...But this is an interesting topic all should take the time to grasp. Cumulus Granitus is something no one on any end of the frequency wants to become aqainted with.
Happy Flying.
- YYZ ATC -
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Re:Cold Weather Altimeter Error 12 years 1 month ago #3694

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Illo: I like the story. After reading it, I'm a little surprised that I haven't been questioned by more pilots. For example, when we have an airplane heading for a NAVAID, skimming the bottoms of cloud, and he asks if we can give him lower to try to get beneath them so he can take a contact approach, I wouldn't think twice above assigning an MRVA without actually saying something to indicate to the pilot that I'm ensuring he's at a safe altitude. In some areas, as the initial story brought out, the MRVAs are often below the quadrantals or other minimum IFR altitudes. And yet, nobody has ever questioned me the way you did. Now, if they did, I would fully understand what the pilot was getting at, and would explain to the pilot that the altitude was safe rather than getting pissy about it. It makes me wonder a little about the pilots. Either they trust us, or they are not situationally aware in the same way your crew was that day...

If I can justify what I'm doing as reasonable and safe, I'll keep doing it. Maybe I can learn something from the question, too. I don't mind questions, generally, but I do mind attitude. For example, one regional pilot was cleared for an approach at Charlottetown some time ago, and told to contact YG RDO on 118.0. The pilot came back and said, \"you mean 122.1, right?\" When the controller confirmed the frequency as 118.0, the pilot radioed back, with attitude, \"Well on our charts it says 122.1\". Turns out the regional carrier was running with charts that were at least 3 pub cycles out of date. Glad I don't fly with this group. Ever.
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Need suggestions for Good Flight School Around GTA 6 months 4 weeks ago #20992

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Cold Weather Altimeter Error 3 months 3 days ago #21268

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