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TOPIC: Enroute Procedures

Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8868

Mike,

Can you coach me on this one?

I want to depart my home aerodrome CZBA, which is 1900 feet below CYYZ Class C, and fly east to Ottawa without flying north all the way around the airspace. The procedures as I understand it are:

1. File and open a Flight Plan.
2. Once airborne, contact Toronto Centre, report on a VFR FP from CZBA to CYOW, requesting clearance to transit the airspace, then circle and wait.

Once in the airspace, I realize that ACC may provide traffic information, but will they also help guide me through the space or am I on my own? What if my altitude and heading are conflicting with inbound CYYZ traffic? Certainly they're not going to vector a heavy to avoid me, are they?

Along the route, Toronto City Centre airport has a control zone that I would need to fly through. I'm guessing that I need to contact City Tower for clearance to transit the zone as well. Is there a hand-off between ACC and the Tower? How would I indicate in my flight plan my intention to follow the prescribed \"Lakeshore Route\" through the zone?

The altitudes are making me a bit nervous, as there are several control areas within close proximity, complicate that with the Toronto Skyline, and flight over water. I don't want to bust through any airspace, but also not get too far off track.

Tips? I will probably pay an instructor to fly it with me if I end up feeling too challenged.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8869

  • Matthew
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They will hand you off from each controller one by one along your route. If anything I find it alot easier to fly through airspace then in a uncontrolled enviroment. From my experience they guide you through pretty much everything. Just make sure your resetting your HI with your compass regularily, that can really become a problem for twr.

Im not really sure about twr vectoring the heavy around you though, they'll probably vector you around the heavy if anything.

Could someone more knowledgeable step in on this issue?
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8870

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1. File and open a Flight Plan.
2. Once airborne, contact Toronto Centre, report on a VFR FP from CZBA to CYOW, requesting clearance to transit the airspace, then circle and wait.

In addition you will want to make a call to the ACC which runs the Terminal airspace. They may or may not be able to file your flight plan but they probably will want to know your intentions. They may issue you a squak code as well or they might get it to you airborne.

My CFS is about 2 generations out of date but take a look at page B829. When airborne you will want to be talking to the ACC guys on the frequency in the box that looks like the one below

125
[TML 119.3]
17

That is saying that between 12500' and 1700' you should be on frequency 119.3. The altitudes change the closer you get in.

To get to your final destination you will either be vectored around to go under the arrivals and departures or go right over the airport overtop of the airport traffic. I was from Calgary and so I can't specifically say what Toronto will do


Once in the airspace, I realize that ACC may provide traffic information, but will they also help guide me through the space or am I on my own? What if my altitude and heading are conflicting with inbound CYYZ traffic? Certainly they're not going to vector a heavy to avoid me, are they?

As much as they can they will say fly to a VFR waypoint or fly a heading. They will probably keep you a fair distance from any airport traffic and will probably vector you around the traffic because your a little more mobile and less impatient.

Along the route, Toronto City Centre airport has a control zone that I would need to fly through. I'm guessing that I need to contact City Tower for clearance to transit the zone as well. Is there a hand-off between ACC and the Tower? How would I indicate in my flight plan my intention to follow the prescribed \"Lakeshore Route\" through the zone?

If your talking to Terminal they will hand you off when they want or depending on your altitude they might keep you. I think the lakeshore route is only for aircraft taking off City center because it originates North of the airport. If that is how you still want to fly just indicate that you want to overfly the city center airport in your routing then the lakeshore route northward.

Hopefully you have a moving map GPS because they have the control zone's on the map for you. That takes the stress level down a bit. Usually I make contact about a half zone prior to me entering their airspace so that I'm well ahead of schedule.

Take a camera as well!

Post edited by: Graham, at: 2007/03/10 18:13<br><br>Post edited by: Graham, at: 2007/03/10 18:14
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8871

  • Matthew
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Ya and we want to see lots of pictures when you get back.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8872

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Chris,

I used to feel the same way before I did it for the first time! As Matthew said it is actually quite comfortable, and easy. One thing you really can't bank on (pardon the pun) is flying your planned altitude through the terminal. Most likely they will have you down at 2000 or 2500 through the terminal, and will let you go up to whatever you want on the east side once you are clear. I got 3000 once, but that was when arrivals at Pearson were on a different runway that wouldn't conflict.

When departing Burlington, climb up through 1500, then immediately switch to 119.3. Give Toronto Centre a call (there is no ATIS to get, so you don't have to say \"with the information\" on initial contact), and when they come back follow the usual procedure for entering controlled airpsace (Position, Altitude, Intentions, Departed last (PAID)). You shouldn't have to do any circling, because they get to you right away. They will give you a squawk code, and altimiter setting and will give you instructions from there. Usually, they have you go straight for the Lakeshore and follow that eastbound. As you fly along, unless you get above 2500 (the top of the CYTZ control zone) they will hand you off to City Tower, and they will hand you off to Toronto again on 133.4. They will also ask if you want flight following for the rest of your trip after you clear Toronto to the east.

I think you will find out very quickly that they are very accomodating and easy to deal with. Just a couple weeks ago I took a friend for a scenic flight around the CN tower - it was no problem at all. I had never done it and didn't know what to expect. You just have to keep a good listening watch on the radio as they make frequent traffic advisories to you and other aircraft. So, if you have passengers who like to talk I would say it is good to have a signal for when to be quiet! (I missed a call when my friend was talking to me)

If you still don't feel comfortable with it, you can always have an instructor go with you (I did that the first time). Or, if you know anyone at the airport who wants to go for a ride, and has done it before that's always good too. (Saves a little bit on the instructor)

If I see you at the airport, I'll have to say hello. From your pic there I think I know which plane is yours - been up doing circuits last weekend I think right? Looks like a nice plane!

Andrew
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8873

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Graham and Andrew have covered this pretty completely. I've flown to Montreal and Ottawa several times out of CZBA. Mostly IFR but some VFR as well. In both cases we contacted Toronto Terminal on 119.3 advised them our aircraft type and call sign, altitude and which airport and runway we just departed from. Of course advise them you're on a VFR flight plan. They will immidiately give you a transponder code and once you plug in that number they will advise \"radar contact\". You won't likely have to squak ident. From there you will most likely get vectored south along the lakeshore. \"Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, turn right (left) heading 120 degrees, climb and maintain 2000.\" They won't let you get too far over the lake before they turn you east. Depending on the winds that day they may also get you to climb to your requested FL. Don't worry about contacting City Centre unless ATC advises you to do so.

I know the trip can seem daunting at first but it's really not difficult at all. As Andrew said, have a good listening watch on the frequency and you'll be just fine. It's a busy time even if ATC aren't talking to you so ask the passengers to respect that until you're well clear of the Toronto area.

And finally, if after all your pre-planning and map reading you still have doubts then by all means ask an instructor to come along. It's money well spent. That's what I did the first time. As a suggestion, before you get in the plane talk to your instructor and indicate that you want to handle all aspects of the flight as much as possible without too much \"input\" from him (or her). You'll be surprised how much confidence can be built up just knowing you have someone sitting next to you who knows what's going on but you are IN CONTROL. In the past, I've relied too much on the fact the instructor has been there and I've missed some valuable lessons. Don't let that opportunity slip through your fingers.

Good luck and by all means let us know how it goes. We're all anxiously awaiting your next post.



:woohoo: :woohoo:
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8896

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It's well covered. The big thing you have to concern yourself is your responsibilities.

Have a look at the charts and see what class of airspace you have to fly through. While not familiar with the area myself, you mention Class C airspace. That means you require a clearance to operate within it as a VFR aircraft. It's no longer completely your own navigation on a see-and-be-seen basis. The see-and-be-seen is still the rule, but ATC must now apply separation between your flight and others. The only way they can do this is if they have the authority to direct your flight. So when they assign you an altitude or a heading, you must have a real good reason for not accepting it. If the heading or altitude will take you into cloud, for example, you must refuse the instruction/clearance with the reason so they can take alternate action. But it's not like Class E airspace where ATC has not the authority to direct you.

Once you have ascertained what your responsibilities are for any given area with respect to classes of airspace, you have to do a little chart digging to see just who you are to call, where, and look for any appropriate procedures laid down. In many areas across the country, the traffic is not as congested as the Toronto area, so the flight planning process is a little less complicated. But the CFS has information related to VFR corridors in VFR Terminal Procedures charts in with the aerodrome entires, as well as some items in the Planning section near the back. Don't be afraid to look this sort of thing over before the flight. If you're just encountering it while you're in the cockpit, it's already too late.

I don't know if there's anything more I can add to what has already been said. My experiences in the Toronto area are nil, and experience is always the best teacher, so take what you can from the above posts. And enjoy your flight.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8897

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Chris,

Just to add one more concurring voice: I had planned (but ended up not making) a VFR trip in a C172 counterclockwise circumnavigating the Greater Toronto Area today. I'd never dealt with Pearson ATC before, so phoned my club (Brampton) earlier this week and asked an instructor a) what I needed to do; b) what I should expect.

Instructions I was given: Once airborne and out of the circuit, contact Pearson, inform of my position relative to the airport (Brampton) and intentions. Pearson would likely keep me at 2,000 ASL, vector me to the lakeshore, then eastbound along the lakeshore, handing me off to Toronto City Centre. TCC would hand me off back to Pearson which would take me until handing me off northbound to Buttonville; which would then hand me back to Pearson for the remainder of the northbound and the westbound back to Brampton.

What set my mind most at ease was the instructor's reassurance that Pearson does this all the time. No big deal for them.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8905

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Quick question: Can I get a explaination on flight following? Ive heard it before and kind of understand the concept but just want to verify things.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8907

Splendor Bouman

Every take-off is optional, but the subsequent landing is mandatory..
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 7 months ago #8913

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Bookmarked.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 6 months ago #9127

  • Kevin C
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As someone who flies in the vicinity of YYZ I know that talking to Pearson can be somewhat daunting. I remember when I did my first dual x-country from CNC3 to CYSN I wanted to get flight following for the experience but in a way I felt silly bothering such a major airport for something so small as a 172.

In the end though the more you do it the easier it is as it's really more of a comfort level thing than anything. It doesn't really hurt to ask - worst case they'll just tell you they're too busy.

I have heard that some people (even pilots with many hours) will shy away from talking to Pearson and just fly under (or skirt around) their airspace. I would recommend that anyone use flight following when it is available to them as all it costs you is a few seconds of radio time but it's a great safety benefit. You're always responsible for making sure you're flying safely so you'll need to keep your eyes out (if you're VFR) whether you have flight following or not - but what harm does it do to have that extra pair of eyes looking out for you?

I would imagine it makes things easier for ATC as well because they know who you are and what your intentions are and they know they have your ear (or should have it) if they need to call you for any reason.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 6 months ago #9135

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Kevin C wrote:
I would imagine it makes things easier for ATC as well because they know who you are and what your intentions are and they know they have your ear (or should have it) if they need to call you for any reason.

A lot of pilots share the idea of feeling like they're \"bothering\" ATC by calling up. I'm sure there are enough controllers who sound bothered by their calls to reinforce that idea, unfortunately. Even so, the above statement is more than valid. It does add to ATC's workload to talk to yet another airplane, but the benefits of having a pilot on frequency can outweigh the extra work. As mentioned, if I know who you are and what you're doing, my workload can change dramatically at a critical time. For example, if I have an IFR aircraft heading for a VFR target on radar, the difference between knowing something about that VFR target can result in the dramatic difference between these two transmissions:

1) \"Alpha Bravo Charlie, traffic twelve o'clock, 5 miles, eastbound, Mode C showing three thousand five hundred unverified, slow moving\"

and

2) [Intentionally left blank]

If I know who you are and what you're doing, I can know for sure that you aren't actually in the way of my IFR airplane and not even have to make the transmission in the first place.

And, if I have information that may help you, I can relay that to you. One point to make: I understand that sometimes you have to leave my frequency, but just let me know before you do. I can't provide you with traffic information if you're not listening.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 6 months ago #9144

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Kevin C wrote:
I have heard that some people (even pilots with many hours) will shy away from talking to Pearson and just fly under (or skirt around) their airspace.

I remember my COPA flight leader telling me they had a controller as a guest speaker at one of their gatherings who worked in the tower for a Class D control zone. He said there are always people who shy away from contacting them to request a transition through their airspace, and opt to go around the control zone. In the end, it causes a lot of problems for aircraft they have departing, because some plane is flying a mile outside the zone without contacting the tower. He said it is much easier and safer for everyone if you just contact them and fly through the zone instead of going around it. Michael already touched on the subject in his post, but after I heard that it really does make sense when you think about it - really what's 2 or 3 radio calls? Is it that hard?

If a control zone is very close to my planned route, and I don't have flight following, I extend the controller of that zone the courtesy of letting them know my intentions as I pass by.
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Re:Enroute Procedures 10 years 6 months ago #9149

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Andrew Bell wrote:
Kevin C wrote:
I have heard that some people (even pilots with many hours) will shy away from talking to Pearson and just fly under (or skirt around) their airspace.

I remember my COPA flight leader telling me they had a controller as a guest speaker at one of their gatherings who worked in the tower for a Class D control zone. He said there are always people who shy away from contacting them to request a transition through their airspace, and opt to go around the control zone. In the end, it causes a lot of problems for aircraft they have departing, because some plane is flying a mile outside the zone without contacting the tower. He said it is much easier and safer for everyone if you just contact them and fly through the zone instead of going around it. Michael already touched on the subject in his post, but after I heard that it really does make sense when you think about it - really what's 2 or 3 radio calls? Is it that hard?

If a control zone is very close to my planned route, and I don't have flight following, I extend the controller of that zone the courtesy of letting them know my intentions as I pass by.

Our experience in dealing with yyz tower on three different occasions has always been positive, with no probs transitioning the zone. In one case they let us orbit over the airport for photos. :)

Just call and ask. The worst they can say is no.<br><br>Post edited by: PrairieDog, at: 2007/03/24 21:08
\"Success four flights thursday morning...inform press home christmas\" Orville Wright Dec17,1903
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Need suggestions for Good Flight School Around GTA 2 weeks 5 days ago #21061

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