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TOPIC: The AVRO Arrow

The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14161

So its 50 years ago today that the AVRO Arrow made its first test flight...

First...
- Plans to production (no true prototype) design
- First Fly by Wire
- First Super Cruise
- First On board computer systems

While the controversy rages on even today I wonder...

Where would Canadian Aviation be today if the Arrow had gone into full production???

Your thoughts

Tom H
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14163

  • Jim Layes
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I remember when Prime Minister Diefenbaker sold the technology for the Arrow to the USA. What a loss for Canada, then a great leader in technology. It looks lile we may be in for a repeat performance with the pending sale of RADARSTAT-2. Hard to believe that Canadian leaders could even consider such a blundering folly.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14164

  • Illo A Neri
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Good question, where would it have been? While the CF105 was more of an interceptor versus a fighter, what it did do was advance technology incredibly. The Mercury and Gemini programs scooped many AVRO engineers. The Flying 400, a canadian hydrofoil, was largely all messed up until aeronautical engineers from AVRO came in and told them how to work aluminum and titanium. Finally, the SR71 engine technology, when you look at it...is awfully reminiscent of the iroquois.

Let's hope we don't make the same mistake with selling MDA.

Illo
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14165

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Igloo wrote:
Good question, where would it have been? While the CF105 was more of an interceptor versus a fighter, what it did do was advance technology incredibly. The Mercury and Gemini programs scooped many AVRO engineers. The Flying 400, a canadian hydrofoil, was largely all messed up until aeronautical engineers from AVRO came in and told them how to work aluminum and titanium. Finally, the SR71 engine technology, when you look at it...is awfully reminiscent of the iroquois.

Let's hope we don't make the same mistake with selling MDA.

Illo

And some of those guys also went on to design the space shuttle.

Oh, and you're in good company and not the first person I've heard make the link between Arrow and MDA. In fact, Marc Garneau said on CTV's Question Period, Sunday, that we'd be selling our sovereignty.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14166

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kadet wrote:
I remember when Prime Minister Diefenbaker sold the technology for the Arrow to the USA. What a loss for Canada, then a great leader in technology. It looks lile we may be in for a repeat performance with the pending sale of RADARSTAT-2. Hard to believe that Canadian leaders could even consider such a blundering folly.

What kind of technology are you talking about? I was under the impression that everything related to the Arrow was ordered to be destroyed by Diefenbaker, so nobody else would have it.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14167

I don't know that you can compare the sale of part of MDA with the killing of the Arrow. While unfortunate it's a business transaction conducted with the interest of the company in mind.
The death of the Arrow was the last nail in the coffin for a company that was basically destroyed by government meddling. AVRO built the Jetliner which the government had them destroy so that they wouldn't be distracted from building CF-100s, and then they had them destroy the Arrow because... well there wasn't really any good reason. The end result as we all know was the end of the leading Aerospace industry in Canada.
As has been noted it was a boon for NASA and it's contractors, and for the Concorde project as well.

It's too bad that we Canadians are so afraid of being in the lead, and have to wait until somebody else does it first.

Terry
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14169

  • Jim Layes
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In 1946 the Royal Canadian Air Force decided to replace part of their squadron with a long-ranged, twin-engined all weather supersonic interceptors, that was an all Canadian plane. The arrow was clearly the most advanced plane of its time. Clearly the Canadian Governments decision to scrap the Avro CF-105 Arrow was a big loss to Canada and Canadians. The Avro Arrow was state of the art and one of the most advanced Interceptor Jet fighter of its time. The first five Arrows was equipped with two Pratt & Whitney J75 engines, but later Orenda engines developed the Canadian-made PS-13 Orenda Iroquois. Which were much better performances wise and was made up of 30% Titanium which was scarce and expensive at that time. Using Titanium they were able to cut down weight by 850 pounds and had a total weight of 2000kg. The Iroquois was the most powerful engine of the American continent, it had a very good weight-to-thrust ratio, it was fuel efficient. Development cost had not exceeded ninety million, cheap even for that time(Gustin,3). The Arrow also had an Electronics system much more advanced then what was in any other plane back then. Everything about this plane was advanced from the shape of the wings and design down to the landing gears was all State of the Art. When the Government decided to scrap this plane, it was a waste of knowledge it is not smart too develop a plane like the Arrow and destroy every plane and flight records, data, blueprints etc. The Government could have kept one plane and use it for tests and Supersonic research. Had growing momentum been allowed to continue, we would have seen many new advances in aviation originating from Canada, a then recognized world leader in research and development. We were at the doorstep of the future and it was Canada's chance to the aviation world(Organ,160). Scrapping the Arrow was not Economically a wise decision by the Government. On Friday, February 20th at about 11:00a.m., Prime Minister John Diefenbaker announced in the House of Commons the termination of the Arrow and Iroquois programs and 14,000 employees(Organ,141) were laid off that day. They just thought that there was going to be a scaling down of the project but not an entire cancellation then destruction of all Arrow and parts. There was also a potential of future profit that would have benefitted Canada. \"If the Arrow and the Iroquois had been continued, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization(NATO) countries would have had a first rate Interceptor and our country's balance of payments may probably have been in better a shape, as our NATO partners lined up to place orders for the Arrow\"(Organ,160). Later these bright creative Canadian Engineers and Mechanics, Technicians left Canada and to the United States to work for major American companies like Boeing, Mc Donnell Douglas and for National Aeronautics and Space Administration(NASA) and help put the first man on the moon. If the Arrow and Iroquois program had survived and if those technicians and engineers etc, would have stayed, Canada would have a Space program.
























Also the Governments decision was probably Canada's last chance for independence from the United States. Since the project was cancelled the Royal Canadian Air Force was forced to purchase the Bomarc Missile and F-101 Voodoo that the RCAF had already rejected before they started the Arrow project, the Missiles and the Voodoo fighters were very expensive to purchase and maintain and, could never replace the Arrow. \"People thought that push-button warfare was the future, history has proven that an advanced all-weather interceptor, with long range supersonic capabilities were needed, and was not replaced by the new missile age\"(Organ,160). The Voodoo and Bomarc were prehistoric compared with the high-tech Arrow. If Canada still had the Arrow, the North American Air Defense Command(NORAD) wouldn't have forced the Voodoo or Bomarc upon us and tell us what to do with them. For NORAD there was an advantage for them if the Arrow was cancelled then they control what planes Canada flies or uses. Therefore the Canadian Governments decision to scrap the Avro CF-105 Arrow was a big loss for Canada and Canadians, the Arrow was state of the art, government loss money and chance for space program, and last chance for independence from the U.S. \"We were at the doorstep of the future and it was Canada's chance to lead the Aviation world\"(Organ,160).
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14170

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tcooper wrote:
The end result as we all know was the end of the leading Aerospace industry in Canada.

What about Bombardier? They’re the world’s 3rd largest manufacturer of Civil Aircraft. Only Boeing and Airbus rival it. CAE is making high-tech simulators for militaries and civil customers worldwide. P&W Canada is the first choice for all regional carrier turboprops and corporate jets and helicopters.

As far as I’m concerned, I’m happy the way the Canadian Aerospace Industry is doing right now. The bottom line was that the Avro Arrow project was just too darn expensive. We bought the CF-101 Voodoo as an interim for the ex-CF-105 at a fraction of the price it cost to develop the Arrow.

Most of the time procurements and contracts and acquisitions for Military Aircraft are far less expensive than making it yourself solely due to the fact of development costs.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14172

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I hope you didn't copy/paste that word for word kadet...
Last Edit: 11 years 2 months ago by Chris.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14173

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kadet, what technology was sold to the US? I know it was very advanced for its time, and was years ahead of other countries, but as far as I know none of it was sold.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14174

  • Tom Telford
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It is a bizarre twist, if history is to be believed, that it was Eisenhower's almost paranoid fear of the burgeoning military industrial machine that caused him to pressure Diefenbaker into cancelling the programme and opt for \"cheap\" missiles. I'm not positive that it was not all bluff and smoke hiding cruder nationalistic intentions but it is confirmed by his last address...

And I wonder how much of the debacle can be laid at Crawford Gordon's feet.

In any case, and you will all yell at me, but the Arrow would not really be Canadian anyway because A.V Roe & Co. was a wholly owned division of Hawker Siddley, UK. So any arguments about selling out Canadian technology has pretty loose footing.

I also happen to think that the Canadian aerospace industry is doing just fine even if it is in the quiet, unassuming way Canadians seem to prefer. CAE for one is a great story.

Still, it would have been cool to see it fly...

My two cents.

Tom.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14176

Last Edit: 11 years 2 months ago by Steve Taylor.
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14178

Yes the Aerospace industry is doing better, but it's taken 50 years to recover from Deifenbaker's stupidity and short sightedness. It's also true as someone said that Avro was actually a British company, but the work was done in Canada mostly by Canadians or soon to be Canadians.
Unfortunately this is an example that it far too common in this country of small thinking, having to wait for someone else to prove that something is good before we accept it (after all if a Canadian came up with it before an American it can't really be that good).

Terry
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Re:The AVRO Arrow 11 years 2 months ago #14179

It would be interesting to have crystal ball wouldn't it.

The Arrow was only the tip of the ice berg of what was lost.

Through a friend who is an author I have had the pleasure of viewing some of the projects that never get mentioned

- The second generation AVRO Jetliner with a swept wing and pod
mounted engines...10 years before the 737 this one was well into
final design.
- The MkII and MkIII Arrows that were the logical evolution and even
more advanced...the MkII was already on the production line...the
MkIII with a bubble canopy and other minor evolutionary changes
had gone through final design.
- Swept wing version of the CF-100 that was in mock up with a
planned VTOL capability.
- The engine technology behind the Iroquois made the future so
bright on the power plant side.

But the greatest loss to me was the talented engineers and manufacturing staff that drove the AVRO machine.

The blame can be spread quite widely...but imagine the coulda been.

Tom H
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20180207caihuali 1 year 4 months ago #21293

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