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TOPIC: Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back???

Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12734

Just curious what the general feeling is with regards to the level of professionalism in some of Canada's smaller flying schools. I've been disappointed on a number of occassions by my own school (let's call it Mucho-Relaxo in Quebec...). The instructors are fantastic, but there's been so many times where I've shown up for a booked session only to find no dispatcher, A/C seem to linger in maintenance, A/C parked without fuel, tie-down ropes frayed then tied together, weight and balance worksheets out of date...it's hard for me to write this because the people are great.

Maybe it's because in \"real life\" I work in such a professional environment, still in the aviation industry, that I expect a little more...

Anyone else have the impression that their school feels more like a club than a business?
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12735

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Well I see you fly out of Css3, well I can assure you that all of the aircraft are very well maintained on the mechanical and airworthiness matters... not so much on esthetics's though... as for dispatchers not being there I'm not certain, as I do perform duties as dispatch, and let me tell you it isn't that simple, they are a lot of things to look out for. As for the aircraft not being fueled before they are rented, the need just isn't there during the winter months and it isn't the instructors duty to fill the plane up after every flight, so please take it easy, as for the lack of a/c, we are trying our best, the TBO on 3-4 of our engines as expired... Presently we have them ordered for some of the aircraft, as for the Cougar we are expecting to be able to make it available for spring 2008, and for the piper arrow, which as undergone restoration we are still waiting to get an engine, so by summer 2008 for that aircraft. Laurentide is presently able to offer IFR and Instructor ratings. Most of the staff and administration is working very hard to create a better environment. Maybe you should speak to them about it. Or me if it's for Laurentide @ laurentideaviation.com

F.
Last Edit: 8 years 8 months ago by Frank.
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12736

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Anyone else have the impression that their school feels more like a club than a business?
Club or Business, it does not matter, they should both treat their member/clients with respect and run their operations professionally.

gbaxjr; if you have found such problems on \"a number of occasions\" then you should consider looking for another school. Flying is already expensive, and if I had to sacrifice additional hours away from work/home when lessons were curtailed due to these kind of issues I would not continue with that outfit.

Let me clarify that sometimes \"things\" happen in aviation and lessons or flights get cancelled. What you have described seems like a pattern, especially employees not being present during business hours. The dispatcher is frequently the most important \"first contact\" anyone has with a business, and unfortunately this is often an entry-level position. A good dispatcher should anticipate aircraft and instructor availability problems and work with the client to resolve such issues. A good business gives the dispatcher some authority to make scheduling decisions to mitigate such issues.

It doesn't matter whether the operation calls itself a Club or a Business, the students and members should receive professional treatment. I instruct on the weekends. I do it because I enjoy it, I drag aircraft around, I fuel them myself and I try to ensure my student has an enjoyable learning experience. I expect my students will do the same when they become instructors.

Francois;
it isn't the instructors duty to fill the plane up after every flight
I'm not sure what you are saying here. I assume that the previous student AND his instructor are responsible for refuelling and securing the aircraft after the lesson? What is it that you cannot afford, and how can you use affordability as a reason for not doing something that is required like refuelling? Your comments about aircraft availability at CSS3 don't give me a warm feeling either - did all 3-4 engines arrive at TBO simultaneously? Very strange. I get really concerned when I see their website offers discounts if you pay $3000 or $6000 deposits on your training. :(

http://www.laurentideaviation.com/specials/

I hope I am wrong, and I hope the business is in good shape, but I would not advance the business a large sum of money for my training after what Francois said about the engine overhaul backlog.
Last Edit: 11 years 7 months ago by Frank.
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12739

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The Engines are at the shop being overhauled and should all be installed by spring-summer 2008. The reason for those engines achieving TBO is during the past years our Chief of Operations M.Schofield passed in a tragic car accident, it was at that time that one of his relatives took the business in charge without much knowledge of the industry. During that time it was a difficult period for the school.

In 2006, Roger Joanette became Chief of Operations and made great changes and we started moving uphill once again, but sadly in spring of 2007 he passed away. Transport Canada then froze all operations for a couple of weeks until a new CFI was named, Norbert Czar Class 1, soon after he was whisked away by the airlines, once again no CFI, then frozen again until the paperwork was done to name a Class 3 instructor CFI, for several months until he completed is Class 2, the other instructors where not allowed to fly. During that low business period the aircrafts approached there TBOs, nothing was done during that time since the demand was just not there.

In late spring the CFI completed is Class 2, and operations resumed and rapidly consumed the remaining hours on the aircraft. So slowly not being able to gage the demand, only one engine was sent for an overhaul. This aircraft is now flying. In the past month we sent a other engine for overhaul, we received it this past week, it's being installed right now on a 172. We also sent not too long ago an engine for a 152, should be installed in the next months.

In spring we will also return the Cougar to the line to complete the MULTI-IFR ratings, our advance single engine, P28R should have a new engine installed before summer. The exact time line for sending the 2 remaining 152 engines depends on demand, shortly we should have 3 152s available, we expect that we will probably bring 2 out of the 3 in storage back for summer the peak period.

The school is healthy presently considering the hard times they experienced, it's impressive the ongoing progress which is attributable to the excellent team who is working together to bring back a professional touch to our school. Most of our dispatchers during the summer period are pilots(also young adults and teens like myself), during the winter period usually it's locals at the dispatch counter. I really don't know how they are since I'm at school during the week and when I come in on weekends as a dispatcher I have to go over all that they did in the week to ensure that no discrepancies are in the books since most of them are new. So sorry if ever I'm not at my desk, or that planes are not available.

I do my best to provide the best service possible, sometimes snags do happen and to ensure the safety of all, those planes are immediately pulled out of the fleet for inspections, usually in the hour, even on weekends to minimize delays or canceled flights.

It's unfortunate for those who have to be canceled, I dread making the calls, but I do when I have to.

Presently on a 5 aircraft fleet, bookings have to be made around 3-4 weeks in advance, so I understand your frustration when a flight is canceled, I rent too. Just understand that we work hard to provide the best training possible.

Francois
Last Edit: 11 years 7 months ago by Frank.
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12740

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Francois,

What a horrible transitional time to go through! Best luck going forward!
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12741

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I would also like to denote that at Laurentide W/B is performed on the Flight Planning computer, so technically they shouldn't be out of date, please voice your concerns tro the CFI or dispatcher, we have normal W/B sheets available for students, and they aren't out of date unless a dispatcher copied the wrong ones... Our tie down ropes shouldn't be frayed since most of them have been replaced during the summer period.

Francois
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12742

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Thank You Sydney for your understanding, thanks for your kind word, have a nice day, and happy landings ;)
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12743

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Gbaxjr: I almost changed schools because my flights kept getting cancelled for various reasons. You do have to roll with punches... Up to a point... and then ask yourself is there a better place to be doing this.

My flight school is not the most professional. It does come across more as a club then a school. I have to say though, the airplanes are well maintained and the people are awesome.

There are some little things that do bug me and the reason I think the school lets things get as they are is because they lose the perspective that an outsider might have.

I have a feeling that now Francois knows that the professionalism at his school has been quesioned, the next time he is going to go in he will probably have a more critical eye. Are there
people who keep getting cancelled on? Is the place tidy, are the airplanes ready, etc. Bring it up to the owner, hey, this customer isn't happy what can we do about it. I think most would want there customer to say something because it probably is an easy fix, then have the customer go spend their money elsewhere.
I complained to my flight school (I have to say it was not easy) but now they are better, I am happy, and they have a lot more of my money.
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12744

Francois, from personal experience I can say your professionalism and dedication is unquestionable. And, as I mentioned, the people overall are fantastic (which is why I didn't want to mention the school; you're all great guys). You should also take into account the fact that not everyone shares your level of professionalism (I don't want to publicize a very recent frustration, now that the school has been mentioned).

I'm fully aware of the history of personnel changes at the school and I believe that's the key reason for all these little annoyances piling up. The instruction is great, but the ownership and dare I say passion, love, and attention to detail seems lacking. A few ideas:

- If early bookings can't be satisfied (dispatcher availability, CFI signature etc..), then the school shouldn't take early bookings. Period.
- I like the computer-based W&B program, but the hard-copy list with all the A/C is about 1 year old (as per date in heading) and lists A/C that aren't there anymore (not even 1 year ago). I know my buddy still likes doing it manually because nobody's shown him the computer program.
- There should be dipsticks to gauge how much fuel is on board the A/C (not always easy to see the surface reflection)
- Why not have a look at flights booked the next day and ensure the fuel's topped up? The customer is paying for it anyway.
- I know the planes aren't brand new, but an end-of-day cleanup is simple.
- How 'bout online bookings?
- How 'bout some plastic cups for the water cooler?

You get the idea, and I don't even need to mention the big-ticket-ultra-expensive changes that would be nice. I know you guys are trying.
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 7 months ago #12747

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lol... I know, I can get the W/B sheet info changed easily, but if the figuring aircraft's info have not been modified then the W/B data is still good.

I've been looking into online booking solutions, and I haven't yet found one that is appropriate to our needs...

I agree with most of the points that you mention.

I donate my time periodically and try to help around, prepare stuff, if we all kick in we can make a difference.

The thing is that the planes can't be filled to the rim because of WB issues, as for the dipstick... People being people will steal them.

We also have to look at the people who aren't all very well educated, some are very difficult to deal with. Sometimes just a bit of patience or a small hand here and there really helps.

I'll see what can be done to better the situation, but Laurentide provides a safe and excellent flight training.

Francois
Last Edit: 11 years 7 months ago by Frank.
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 1 month ago #14681

There is a lot of problems with Aviation in Canada, and I dont know how many of you will share my point of view on this whole situation.

The problem starts at the bottom of list, the flight schools. Flights school got away from idea of helping young aviators become pilots, and got on the idea of making money to buy a nice new house and nice car and all that. Thats why instructors are starving and only do something when they are getting paid. How many of you were disappointed when you were able to start flying solo, and that same day no body cares about you. You can show up at the airport with no airplane available, you booking rescheduled and no instructor there to sing you out. Why? Because they are not getting paid to do all that, so they would much rather concentrate on their dual flight, for which they can afford to keep falling in debt.

Second of all, their is no distinction of people doing flying for fun and for career. There is no selective process, no personal evaluation of abilities. Instructors are afraid to tell students the truth, because they are afraid that they will lose the business. I hate not being able to fly solo with wind at 15 knots, because of \"school policy\". Its bullshit, I did my check out with the CFI for solo with 25 gusting 32. Why should someone who can handle the weather has to sit on the ground. Why is it that when my booking was ending at 1800, and there was no one interested in staying to sing me in after the flight, cancel my booking. Yet if I do not show up for my flight, I will get charged for the whole booking? Where is the management then? Busy counting money in the office?

Because of all this, airlines do not want to pay money to starting out pilots, yet alone hire anyone for anything more than 172 with less than 1500 hours. Yes, you can always argue this by saying, go to a respectable university program/flight training, and walk out with an aviation BBA. Sure, great idea, if you have parents willing to pay 25,000 a year (like in University of Western Ontario). Why is it that in states pilots can finish a CPL oriented program and fly for a regional with minimum time?

Unless someone out there does something about our flight school, do not expect to see this whole pilot shortage thing, because no matter how short they will be, they will not have the confidence in us to pay for what some of us are really worth.
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Re:Flight Schools - Too Laid-Back??? 11 years 1 month ago #14682

There is a lot of problems with Aviation in Canada, and I dont know how many of you will share my point of view on this whole situation.

The problem starts at the bottom of list, the flight schools. Flights school got away from idea of helping young aviators become pilots, and got on the idea of making money to buy a nice new house and nice car and all that. Thats why instructors are starving and only do something when they are getting paid. How many of you were disappointed when you were able to start flying solo, and that same day no body cares about you. You can show up at the airport with no airplane available, you booking rescheduled and no instructor there to sing you out. Why? Because they are not getting paid to do all that, so they would much rather concentrate on their dual flight, for which they can afford to keep falling in debt.

Second of all, their is no distinction of people doing flying for fun and for career. There is no selective process, no personal evaluation of abilities. Instructors are afraid to tell students the truth, because they are afraid that they will lose the business. I hate not being able to fly solo with wind at 15 knots, because of \"school policy\". Its bullshit, I did my check out with the CFI for solo with 25 gusting 32. Why should someone who can handle the weather has to sit on the ground. Why is it that when my booking was ending at 1800, and there was no one interested in staying to sing me in after the flight, cancel my booking. Yet if I do not show up for my flight, I will get charged for the whole booking? Where is the management then? Busy counting money in the office?

Because of all this, airlines do not want to pay money to starting out pilots, yet alone hire anyone for anything more than 172 with less than 1500 hours. Yes, you can always argue this by saying, go to a respectable university program/flight training, and walk out with an aviation BBA. Sure, great idea, if you have parents willing to pay 25,000 a year (like in University of Western Ontario). Why is it that in states pilots can finish a CPL oriented program and fly for a regional with minimum time?

Unless someone out there does something about our flight school, do not expect to see this whole pilot shortage thing, because no matter how short they will be, they will not have the confidence in us to pay for what some of us are really worth.
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chanyuan 1 year 2 months ago #21623

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